# I'm liberal, NOT stupid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 11, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436 "2002-08-11T22:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/101 "2002-08-13T13:54:48Z")
No, Ace. Actually that wasn’t what I was referring to. Take the partisan blinders off. It makes reading easier. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/102 "2002-08-13T14:05:04Z")
**Milossarian** , the only thing of note in that thread is you being dismissive. That’s not partisanship, that’s etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/103 "2002-08-13T14:06:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace0Spades \*Sauron, cmon, ya can’t play dumb with me at this late date. Find for me the “All conservatives are evil,” stawman, or pipe down. Pipe down yourself, Junior. For the record, I’m neither liberal nor conservative. I don’t have to find the ridiculous “all conservatives are evil” “stawman.” All I have to do is point to the post of yours at the top of this page and say that you’re painting all conservatives with the same broad brush. That’s stereotyping, and it’s wrong regardless of which political idealogue holds the brush. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/104 "2002-08-13T14:08:41Z")
Well, shoot. Rephrase that last post to read " … point to the post of yours at the top of page 2 of this thread …" ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/105 "2002-08-13T14:20:22Z")
Oh, and if we’re talking about **gobear** , who takes what Susan Sontag and a bunch of posters to be named later say and smears liberals with a created stereotype, here: > [@](#): > > _originally by gobear_ > On of the weaknesses of the liberal viewpoint is its inability to recognize the existence of true evil. There is no act so depraved, no criminal so vile, that some liberals will not defend it and/or blame it on someone else. Witness Susan Sontag, as well as some posters here, whose first impulse after 9/11 was to blame America for inciting bin Laden’s attack. I’m interested to know how he would respond to this attack on his position: > [@](#): > > _originally by gobear_ > > You’re kinda missing the point. Stereotypes are generally based on A)false generalizations, and B)ignorance about the actual nature and diversity of the ethnic or religious group in question. When you invoke a stereotype, you are asserting that certain traits are common to all members of that group. That is not the same thing as noting the differences in culture among different groups. > > Using stereotypes to classify or describe people is demeaning because it replaces the uniqueness of the individual with the crude tin stamp of one or two traits that are meant to describe all members of that group. Would you agree with yourself that this post was ignorant and demeaning? I personally don’t have a problem with you using stereotypes, but if you think four posters at the SDMB is counter-proof to any argument: > [@](#): > > _originally by gobear_ > Well, good to know that Sam Stone, Scylla, Anthracite, and DeweyCheatemundHow, among others are powerful, greedy, and evil. Cos, you know, there’s no way for a conservative to have honest disagreements about the tools and philosphy of government Then we’ll get four posters here to go on record as recognizing the existence of true evil, and therefore, consistent with your stated policies, you must retract your liberal sterotype. That is, if you have any honor or intellectual consistency. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/106 "2002-08-13T14:28:35Z")
**Ace** : While I don’t condone **gobear** ’s phrasing in the “weakness of the liberal viewpoint” quote you pulled above, note what he’s actually saying. He’s not saying “All liberals believe this.” He’s saying that _some_ liberals, including Susan Sontag, voiced that opinion. Which is true. Likewise, he’s not saying that _liberals_ can’t recognize true evil, but that the liberal viewpoint doesn’t recognize true evil. As I said, I disagree with the tone he used, but he’s not painting all liberals with the same broad brush you want to use on conservatives. Do you see the difference? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/107 "2002-08-13T14:45:46Z")
**Sauron** , I don’t see the difference when **gobear** says “ **the** liberal viewpoint.” If he had said “Some liberal viewpoints,” or “some views along the liberal spectrum.”, rather than a weakness of the whole, I would agree with you, that there would be a difference. Casting aspersions on “the” liberal viewpoint, as if it were monolithic and Susan Sontag speaks for it, is the same stereotyping he decries. I’m not the only poster who noted this. The brush we use is the same. I could use the **gobear** ’s bowdlerized phrasing, and it would come out thusly: > [@](#): > > “A problem in the conservative mindset is their tendency towards self-interest at the expense of the public whom they are sworn to serve, and this represents a negative trend.” I don’t think that’s an improvement, do you? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/108 "2002-08-13T14:51:15Z")
**Ace** , do you even bother to read the bilge you spew? NOWHERE did I stereotype ALL liberals. Read the excerpt again. > [@](#): > > One of the weaknesses of the liberal viewpoint (you **do** acknowledge that there is a contrast between the views of conservatives and that of liberals, right?) is its inability to recognize the existence of true evil. There is no act so depraved, no criminal so vile, that **some** liberals will not defend it and/or blame it on someone else. See, some liberals, as opposed to every liberal. Moreover, you skipped right over my [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=130241&pagenumber=1) on the first page which expressed admiration for liberal with well-thought-out positions, like Molly Ivins, and the _petitio pentendi_, “to be liberal is to be morally superior” crowd, like Michael Moore. > [@](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with being a liberal bleeding heart. Molly Ivins and Jim Hightower, two political columnists I respect immensely are bleeding heart liberals. Wanting a more compassionate, sensible, tolerant world is the goal of all good people. Conservatives and liberals just have differing ideas on how to accomplish those goals. Liberals like big government; conservatives don’t. So youare either a fool, a liar, or functionally illiterate: whiich is it? **Ace** , me old beauty, you are Peter Lorre to my Humphrey Bogart in **Casablanca:** > [@](#): > > Ugarte: You despise me, don’t you? > Rick Blaine: If I gave you any thought I probably would ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/109 "2002-08-13T15:00:56Z")
And you’ll notice I didn’t call all liberals fools, liars or functionally illiterate–just you, **Ace** , just you. I have more sense than to think that any of the intelligent lefties here condone your nonsense, ya wanker. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/110 "2002-08-13T15:18:37Z")
**gobear** , that _some liberals_ may be unable to recognize evil as evil is no doubt correct. However, that this can be extrapolated to a weakness of “The liberal viewpoint” is an entirely inaccurate use of sterotypes. Similarly, if I noted that you, **gobear** , were a disingenuous, dishonorable, and rude debater in the political arena, I would be unable to extrapolate this to all conservatives, even if it were true. I hope that’s clear enough for you. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/111 "2002-08-13T15:41:07Z")
> [@](#): > > gobear, that some liberals may be unable to recognize evil as evil is no doubt correct. However, that this can be extrapolated to a weakness of “The liberal viewpoint” is an entirely inaccurate use of sterotypes. That is my critique of one of liberalism’s flaws; if you disagree, boo-friggin’-hoo. > [@](#): > > Similarly, if I noted that you, gobear, were a disingenuous, dishonorable, and rude debater in the political arena, I would be unable to extrapolate this to all conservatives, even if it were true. Don’t use words you don’t understand, Skippy. To call me disingenuous is to call me dishonest, and I think I’ve proven who the liar is here. Moreover, you are about as familiar with the concept of honor as a whelk is with the Sahara. And as far as being rude, welcome to the Pit. This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no fooling around. In re your criticisms, I quote Mark Twain as a retort: “I find that I can live without the good opinion of morons.” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/112 "2002-08-13T15:58:04Z")
I’ll go there: I think the liberal viewpoint attracts a disproportionate level of stupid and naive people, and even more of the self-righteous, self-congratulatory whiners whose lack of experience or reasoning ability nevertheless does precious little to thwart their earnest certainty that they have all the answers and know better. That’s pretty obvious. Us conservatives get our share of wingnuts, too. But I prefer the conservative brand of nut, myself. I can deal with a selfish, self-motivated and intolerant person, and those people can change. Stupid, naive and self-righteous is usually a fatally self-perpetuating combination. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/113 "2002-08-13T16:10:35Z")
RE: liberal vs. conservative viewpoints. There is a republican platform, there is a democratic platform. While it is generally true that one is more liberal than the other, neither really should be considered the ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ viewpoint. Perhaps the esteemed mr. **gobear** can show me the appropriate website which describes the ‘approved’ liberal viewpoint, so that I can either agree or disagree. Specifically, I’d love to see where it says > [@](#): > > (snip) liberal viewpoint (has the) inability to recognize the existence of true evil So, yes, that was a wide painting brush of stereo type there, one that you obviously don’t believe belongs to all liberals, but apparently you think it’s part of the ascribed ‘liberal viewpoint’. That’d be like me suggesting that the ‘conservative viewpoint wishes to protect all human life until it’s born’. Certainly some conservatives are strongly pro life, but the characterization is snarky. Many liberals may believe in attempting to understand why abberant behavior exists, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they wish to blame everyone else etc, or that it is a foundation of the liberal view. WRT the rest of this wreck of a thread - I’ve personally not noted that mischaracterizations, ad hominum attacks, snarkiness etc. is the province of only one viewpoint or the other, both on this board and in real life. As with many situations, 'taint black/white. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/114 "2002-08-13T16:25:23Z")
**Scylla** , I’m glad you think it obvious that “stupid, naive, and self-congratulating people” are mostly liberals. That post of yours was pretty naive and horridly self-congratulating, to the point where it can only be called stupid as well. Thanks for your efforts in adding to a higher tone on this board. Perhaps you would put friend **gobear** in the “conservative wingnut” division that you so charitably admit exists? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/115 "2002-08-13T16:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > So, yes, that was a wide painting brush of stereo type there, one that you obviously don’t believe belongs to all liberals, but apparently you think it’s part of the ascribed ‘liberal viewpoint’. Again, that’s something that I see to be generally true of American liberal thought. Sorry, I can’t take the time to describe each and every individual liberal’s unique perspective, but wiith millions of liberals in America, that would really slow down the server. You can disagree with me all you like, but you don’t get to vote on what I think. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/116 "2002-08-13T16:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\ ***Scylla** , I’m glad you think it obvious that “stupid, naive, and self-congratulating people” are mostly liberals. \*\* And yet, that’s not what I said, is it? > [@](#): > > \*\*That post of yours was pretty naive and horridly self-congratulating, to the point where it can only be called stupid as well. \*\* I hope that doesn’t make me a liberal. > [@](#): > > \*\*Thanks for your efforts in adding to a higher tone on this board. \*\* You’re welcome. > [@](#): > > \*\*Perhaps you would put friend **gobear** in the “conservative wingnut” division that you so charitably admit exists? \*\* No, but I’ll put you in the stupid, naive, and self-righteous category of liberal wingnuts. Don’t worry. You’ll be among friends. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/117 "2002-08-13T16:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\* > So now let’s decide whether you’re a liar or just a moron. \*\* What a fine retraction - a truly fine moment in the history of honorable acts. “Some guy I lazily slandered didn’t like it, so I’ll blow him off switch to slandering someone else instead”. Go show your mother what a fine job she did teaching you about responsibility and integrity. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/118 "2002-08-13T16:37:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*I think the liberal viewpoint attracts a disproportionate level of stupid and naive people, and even more of the self-righteous, self-congratulatory whiners whose lack of experience or reasoning ability nevertheless does precious little to thwart their earnest certainty that they have all the answers and know better. > > That’s pretty obvious. > \*\* “that’s obvious”? gotcha. Cool. So the next time I’m generalizing to the max, all I need to say is ‘that’s pretty obvious’ what a time saver. “self congratualtory whiners whose lack of experience or reasoning ability” - so, you’re assuming the ‘smugness’ quotient for conservatives, then, eh? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/119 "2002-08-13T16:40:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*You can disagree with me all you like, but you don’t get to vote on what I think. \*\* nope, not at all, but I **do** have the right to call you on ascribing what **you think** onto others, without proof as you’ve done here. So, I’d have had no quibble w/your assertion if it’d been “IMHO, the liberal viewpoint blah blah blah” but the flat out assertion is unsupportable, as you’ve noted here (you can’t question all liberals as to their viewpoint etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/120 "2002-08-13T16:42:13Z")
Wring: > [@](#): > > “that’s obvious”? gotcha. Cool. So the next time I’m generalizing to the max, all I need to say is ‘that’s pretty obvious’ what a time saver ::shrug:: I didn’t make the world the way it is. > [@](#): > > “self congratualtory whiners whose lack of experience or reasoning ability” - so, you’re assuming the ‘smugness’ quotient for conservatives, then, eh? Touche, and true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436.md?page=7)