# I'm liberal, NOT stupid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 11, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436 "2002-08-11T22:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2002, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/161 "2002-08-13T23:54:07Z")
> [@](#): > > you are certainly the M1 Abrams of our demolition derby. See, liberals can learn. Once the M1 Abrams was viewed by the left as a waste of money, ineffective, unreliable, and unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/162 "2002-08-14T00:44:17Z")
\ That’s my Boris! \ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/163 "2002-08-14T03:06:41Z")
“I love compliments, we all do - burglars, humorists, Congressmen - all of us in the trade. Why, I can live a week on a single compliment! But I was near dumbstruck by this complimentrary thunderbolt! Never have I heard a compliment to gracefully worded, or so richly deserved!” - Mark Twain ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/164 "2002-08-14T03:20:54Z")
Ah, thanks for the assist **Milossarian** , but I’m afraid I must be reading a different thread. The one you pointed out has no one ‘slinking away like pond scum,’ that I can see. Nor does it have a _page 3_. Must be those partisan blinders again, eh? Also, I am amazed that anyone remembers or cares who called whom ‘knee-jerk’ a year ago. You grudge-carrying capacity is quite revolutionary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/165 "2002-08-14T03:30:56Z")
Aside to **Natasha** : Cnyeshna, xhorosho! Ya looblu! Just one thing: you are rather more, ah, _sophisticated_ in these things than I. I am somewhat perplexed by what connection, if any, there is between my shorts and **pldenizen**. Is there some kind of subtext here? My, uh, _orientation_ can’t be suddenly changed, can it? Is there some kind of surgery involved? Don’t I have to come out of something? And don’t I have to be in it in the first place? After all these years of devotion to the Jade Yoni, I don’t think I can handle such, never mind explaining it to my son! I have no concept of interior design, buy my socks by the bag (white, K-mart, $4.99 for 6), and have never had the remotest sense of “style”. Hell, m’am, I’m just a country boy from Waco…I never **been** to Austin and don’t even _know_ any Aggies! Time to page Dr. Kervorkian? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/166 "2002-08-14T03:42:10Z")
DIE THREAD DIE!! I had NO intention of this being a sludgefest for partisan politics. ( In fact, in all on my liberal naiveté I thought that this would be a “please stop calling me stupid”) thread. PLEASE MODS, I’M BEGGING YOU, KILL THIS THREAD! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/167 "2002-08-14T03:47:12Z")
Dear, sweet **Gobear** , > [@](#): > > _Origianlly by Ace0Spades_ > Similarly, if I noted that you, gobear, were a disingenuous, dishonorable, and rude debater in the political arena… > [@](#): > > _Followed by Gobear_ > Don’t use words you don’t understand, Skippy. To call me disingenuous is to call me dishonest, and I think I’ve proven who the liar is here. Just a gentle note to remind you that dishonest is different from dishonorable. Not to imply that you aren’t either, of course. As a compliment from me, for proving who the liar is, please accept this dictionary of your choice, at no additional cost to your packet of crow. Your thoughtful critique of my posts has caused me to amend my original description of you in the interests of both accuracy and comity; To “disingenuous, dishonorable” I humbly submit the addition of “childish, inaccurate, and yet mildly amusing in-a-P.J.-O’Rourke-kind-of-way.” May the corrections be recorded before the termination of the thread. Regards, Ace ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/168 "2002-08-14T03:51:05Z")
**Bio** did you e-mail the mods? I don’t know that they watch every thread. **Beagle** : I’ll have to check that out. Villified Crusader style? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/169 "2002-08-14T03:51:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bio-brat \* > \*\*DIE THREAD DIE!! > > I had NO intention of this being a sludgefest for partisan politics. ( In fact, in all on my liberal naiveté I thought that this would be a “please stop calling me stupid”) thread. > > PLEASE MODS, I’M BEGGING YOU, KILL THIS THREAD! \*\* Not until you **REPENT** your icky touchy-feelly liberallness! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/170 "2002-08-14T06:18:50Z")
Before this thread is killed: _Gobear said_: “It would seem to me that sensible liberals and conservatives have the same goals in mind; to create a society that generates the greatest good for the greatest number. I can respect a disagreement over the methods used to achieve this goal–liberals believe in the redistribution of wealth, whereas conservatives believe that the free market, untouched by government interference, will generate wealth and jobs for society overall.” The problem here is that the disagreement has a strong empirical content and conservatives often seem rather disinterested in (eg) the measured shape of the labor supply curve. I think it’s a disagreement about values, not data interpretation. But I don’t want to go into too much detail (or thought) in a soon-to-be-killed pit thread. Why people believe what they do is a bit of a puzzle. You’re welcome for Sontag, btw (p1). (Thanks for the graciousness.) ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/171 "2002-08-14T06:46:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Villified Crusader style This sounds strangely like a euphemism for something else. What, I cannot determine. I could not find the political debate on the internet. I remember (barely) the controversy from when I was a (very young, really) child. [This](http://www.periscope1.com/demo/weapons/gcv/tanks/w0003593.html) contains some of the other criticisms. > [@](#): > > From its first series of trials in 1976, the M1 has been criticized for high cost, high fuel consumption, and, especially, maintainability problems. Further criticism focused on the 105-mm M68 gun, which was initially chosen over the Rheinmetall 120-mm gun. Many of the early problems have been remedied. There are thousands of other M1 cites. It’s like the Britney Spears of tanks. I guess the M1A2 version is post boob job, to strain the analogy to its breaking point. Let me summarize the debate as I remember it. Conservatives: commies, Fulda Gap, guns! Liberals: poor, inner-city, butter! Repeat ad infinitum ad nauseum. That may be a slight oversimplification. Speaking of euphemisms, we should have buttered our guns early on to satisfy everyone. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/172 "2002-08-14T06:47:35Z")
Share our values and goals? Since when? To the conservative mind, it makes perfect sense to insist that a welfare mom work forty hours a week for chump change, and leave her to find day care from the free market system. Its rather like the old stereotype of the stern dad, throwing his kid in the lake to teach swimming in the sink-or-swim mode. With the extra kick of chaining a bowling ball to his leg. Heartless, cruel and contemptible. Share thier values? What values have they to share? Beside thier deep conviction that the Sermon on the Mount was primarily a defense of property rights. Let me state it more baldly: there is nothing, repeat, _nothing_ that any human being could do, no labor he can perform, that would justify a personal possession of a hundred million dollars. Its shit like this makes the Baby Jesus puke His little guts out! ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/173 "2002-08-14T06:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > This sounds strangely like a euphemism for something else. Arrgh! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/174 "2002-08-14T09:48:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* > Let me state it more baldly: there is nothing, repeat, _nothing_ that any human being could do, no labor he can perform, that would justify a personal possession of a hundred million dollars. > > Its shit like this makes the Baby Jesus puke His little guts out! \*\* So what’s the cap? I want to know how far I have to go to reach it. Marc ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/175 "2002-08-14T10:04:03Z")
But its obvious, isn’t it, grasshopper? It always precisely one dollar more than you have. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/176 "2002-08-14T11:47:12Z")
> [@](#): > > To the conservative mind, it makes perfect sense to insist that a welfare mom work forty hours a week for chump change, and leave her to find day care from the free market system. OK, (No offense, **Elucidator** , I’m waiting for the even-handed and absolutely fair criticism of **Elucidator** for saying the polar opposite of a statement I caught merry hell for. (looks at watch) ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/177 "2002-08-14T11:58:19Z")
C’mon, admit it, Big E – _you’d_ like a hundred million dollars, wouldn’t you? If nothing else, you could give it away to people less fortunate than you are, and assuage your sense of guilt over eating while others are starving. (One wonders how one can live with oneself!) A hundred million dollars would buy an awful lot of smug righteousness combined with self-loathing guilt. Bill Gates has given billions to charity – you’ve got a lot of catching up to do! I wonder if an effective vaccine against AIDS would be worth a hundred million? Or tens of thousands of units of ultra-low-cost housing for the working poor? I bet Jonas Salk was worthy of a hundred million bucks. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/178 "2002-08-14T12:03:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Just a gentle note to remind you that dishonest is different from dishonorable. Not to imply that you aren’t either, of course. As a compliment from me, for proving who the liar is, please accept this dictionary of your choice, at no additional cost to your packet of crow. Again, you exhibit your lack of reading ability. Isaid > [@](#): > > To call me disingenuous is to call me dishonest Thereby equating the terms **disingenuous** and **dishonest** , _not_ **dishonorable** and **dishonest**. Of course, I’m none of these things, but you wouldn’t understand that. Heck, you didn’t even listen when your own side asked you to shut up. If you were merely misinformed, there would be hope for you, but you are too irretrievably stupid to benefit from any further correction. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/179 "2002-08-14T18:05:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > C’mon, admit it, Big E – _you’d_ like a hundred million dollars, wouldn’t you? If nothing else, you could give it away to people less fortunate than you are, and assuage your sense of guilt over eating while others are starving. (One wonders how one can live with oneself!) Attempting to undermine an argument by suggesting that the advocate is unworty of, or insincere about, his argument is the very definition of _ad hominem_, is it not? So lets just cut the crap, I’ll plead guilty. I’m a loathesome, grasping, venal scoundrel who only posts these things in an attempt to undermine all that is good and noble in Western Civ. I attack the very foundation of all that is worthy, the sacred principle of Property (Praise Mammon!) which all right thinking men hold most dear! Now, as to the actual arguments…anything? > [@](#): > > Bill Gates has given billions to charity – you’ve got a lot of catching up to do! An excellent example of the Rosewater Principle (see _Vonnegut, Kurt_) After a certian point, the man no longer possesses the money, the money possesses the man. If I take it into my head to do so, I can get up, go out and bowl a couple of lines, have a beer and one of those shit-ass bar pizzas. Bill G. cannot. His entire life has become a gated community, his children hostages to an untold number of potential kidnappers. As always, an emperor has no friends, only Praetorians. Wish such misery upon yourself, if you are so foolish, but not me. > [@](#): > > I wonder if an effective vaccine against AIDS would be worth a hundred million? Or tens of thousands of units of ultra-low-cost housing for the working poor? I bet Jonas Salk was worthy of a hundred million bucks. Quite so. We have such money, we Americans, such money is chump change for us. Why haven’t we done so? Your agument is based on the fundamental principle of the Church of Mammon, that all men are greedy and grasping, and all is but a struggle in Darkness, red in tooth and claw. Which is to say, we are damned, and well deserving of it. > [@](#): > > A hundred million dollars would buy an awful lot of smug righteousness combined with self-loathing guilt. Kindly refrain from suggesting that you can peer into my soul and take the inventory. Such men exist, from time to time, but the list is short, and your name is not on it. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436/180 "2002-08-14T18:23:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Kindly refrain from suggesting that you can peer into my soul and take the inventory. Such men exist, from time to time, but the list is short, and your name is not on it. Oooh! Ooooh! I am on the list? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-liberal-not-stupid/123436.md?page=10)