# I'm looking for American-produced stories in which the United States is the villain ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 15, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300 "2013-08-15T12:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/41 "2013-08-16T08:46:41Z")
_The Wind and the Lion_ does not have any really good guys, but it does culminate in a U.S. invasion of Morocco. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/42 "2013-08-16T12:08:05Z")
If we’re counting books/movies in which the US Army massacred innocent Indians, there’s _ **Little Big Man.** _ ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/43 "2013-08-16T12:26:41Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Walker - about William Walker, played by all-American Ed Harris. Walker invaded **Mexico** essentially a a privateer for American interests. As played by Harris was a screaming nut-job of the first order. (bolding mine) [nitpick] It’s Nicaragua, actually[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/44 "2013-08-16T13:27:44Z")
How about the **Wool** series, by Hugh Howie? Post Apocalyptic- And it turns out the US intentionally engineered the catastrophe ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/45 "2013-08-16T13:55:34Z")
It’s been a while since I saw it, but it’s my memory that _Three Kings_ is somewhat like this. At least, the more the central characters shift from their initial amorality towards being morally responsible actors, the more they find themselves on the wrong side of those in a position of authority, including their own hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/46 "2013-08-16T14:17:30Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Does [The Quiet American](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quiet_American_(2002_film)) and the book it was based on count? Certainly not the book — it was written by Graham Greene, a Brit. ETA: Ninja’d! I’ll add a factoid, then. There have actually been two Hollywood adaptations of the book in all. In the original adaptation, which Graham Greene disavowed, the American is in the right and the British journalist is the villain! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/47 "2013-08-16T14:31:34Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > “Letters from Iwo Jima” is an American WWII movie told from the Japanese perspective. I don’t recall it particularly vilifying the US, though as it’s told from the Japanese viewpoint the US is obviously the villain. I’d say the US is more like some ominous force of nature in that movie, not really a villain per-se. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/48 "2013-08-16T16:02:41Z")
> [@Renifer](#): > > Can think of several almost examples. > > The most apt of them is _Gone With The Wind_. The South, having seceded from the union, was technically foreign territory, and you have the United States Union side burning Atlanta and raiding plantations. That occurred to me this morning, away from the board. There have got to be plenty of examples set in the Civil War. Maybe _ **The General** _ by Buster Keaton? Maybe _ **The Outlaw Josie Wales** _? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/49 "2013-08-16T17:12:32Z")
Have not been able to recall enough to Google effectively, but there was an old SF short story in which there’s some sort of US and Soviet nuclear exchange. A space platform of orbital missiles sends out the message that its missiles will NOT be fired at earth, because someone has to survive, and they would rather lose the war than destroy earth entirely. The big reveal is that the message is Soviet – they prove willing to take on for the team when the US doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/50 "2013-08-16T19:21:37Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > It’s been a while since I saw it, but it’s my memory that _Three Kings_ is somewhat like this. At least, the more the central characters shift from their initial amorality towards being morally responsible actors, the more they find themselves on the wrong side of those in a position of authority, including their own hierarchy. I wouldn’t say the Americans are villainous in the movie, just varying degrees of cynical or misguided. Outside of the question of the morality of the war itself, individual Americans are never shown committing any overtly immoral acts, aside from stealing the gold. And even that was gold that was taken from billionaire Kuwaiti plutocrats, so it’s not exactly like they’re taking bread out of anyone’s mouths. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/51 "2013-08-16T20:25:39Z")
Nowadays, it would seem that the task of finding American-written stories in which the Americans AREN’T the villains would be the harder job. By the way, the story in Sailboat’s post was by Arthur C. Clarke, a Brit, hence, it doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/52 "2013-08-16T21:40:03Z")
Whoops, Americans, not the Alliance. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/53 "2013-08-16T22:19:35Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Nowadays, it would seem that the task of finding American-written stories in which the Americans AREN’T the villains would be the harder job. Hey, you have to think on the overseas markets… 😉 What I have seen more is stories were Americans are not just the only heroes like in _Pacific Rim_. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/54 "2013-08-17T11:01:32Z")
> [@detop](#): > > (bolding mine) > [nitpick] It’s Nicaragua, actually[/nitpick] But Wikipedia, which is never wrong, says he tried Mexico in 1853. It was only in 1855 he tried Nicaragua. Remember, Walker was such a dynamo they needed ED HARRIS to portray him. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/55 "2013-08-20T11:16:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never actually seen it, and only know it from plot outlines… but would _Birth of a Nation_ count? “International armed conflict.” ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/56 "2013-08-21T01:37:08Z")
I’m honestly not sure whether this fits in or not, but _Superman: Red Son_ is an alternate history where Kal-El landed 12 hours later in the Soviet Union, and grew up to be a good Soviet citizen in a Soviet Union that grows to encompass the entire world, except for the USA and Chile. The US is certainly presented as the villain in the first part of the story, but then a lot of other stuff happens, and the end is Not So Simple. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/57 "2013-08-22T21:52:30Z")
Science Fiction trilogy “Stark’s War”. [wiki link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark%27s_War) The moon has been colonised for mineral extraction mainly by other nations, the U.S. tries to muscle in and seize one of the operations. The U.S. military dudes involved eventually mutiny, and set up their own political entity. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/58 "2013-08-22T22:00:51Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > I’m honestly not sure whether this fits in or not, but _Superman: Red Son_ is an alternate history where Kal-El landed 12 hours later in the Soviet Union, and grew up to be a good Soviet citizen in a Soviet Union that grows to encompass the entire world, except for the USA and Chile. The US is certainly presented as the villain in the first part of the story, but then a lot of other stuff happens, and the end is Not So Simple. I picked that story up because I’m interested in the Cold War and it sounded interesting. While it had its moments I don’t think it made best use of its premise and one aspect left a very sour taste in my mouth: Namely Red Superman using implants to control the minds of those opposed to him, sorry but that’s just weapons-grade Evil and tainted the point that Superman is supposed to be fundementally decent and a good guy, though somewhat misguided, even after being brought up in an evil regime…on a counternote they depicted Red Batman as using terrorist attacks to achieve his aims but doesn’t kill Superman when he has the chance?) I also found it surprisingly sloppy produced in places. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/59 "2013-08-22T22:31:40Z")
_Oliver Wiswell_, by Kenneth Roberts. A historical novel about the American Revolution, told from the Loyalist point of view. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300/60 "2013-08-23T00:04:33Z")
> [@Renifer](#): > > Can think of several almost examples. > > The most apt of them is _Gone With The Wind_. The South, having seceded from the union, was technically foreign territory, and you have the United States Union side burning Atlanta and raiding plantations… At least from Washington’s perspective, don’t think it was that simple. The US never recognized the legitimacy of the Confederacy as a sovereign country. Interestingly enough, in real life, several churches in Northern Virginia were vandalized by (Union) US Army troops during the Civil War. One of the churches, Christ Church in Alexandria, has refused to erase the vandalism even down to the present day and it is still there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-american-produced-stories-in-which-the-united-states-is-the-villain/666300.md?page=2)