# I'm looking for English words in which the digraph "sh" respresents a phoneme other than /ʃ/. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 14, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925 "2011-11-14T19:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/21 "2011-11-14T21:47:02Z")
And if they’re from the wrong place, you kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/22 "2011-11-14T22:04:22Z")
> [@CC](#): > > sure > sumac > sugar Nope. Those are words in which /ʃ/ is spelled in a way other than “sh.” I’m looking for the reverse: words in which “sh” represents a sound other than /ʃ/. **Chronos** , the [del]proper[/del] Scottish “ch” of _loch_ is a different plosive. In the International Phonetic Alphabet, that phoneme is represented by /x/ (which of course is not that of /k/ + /s/ one hears at the end of _box_, because that would be too easy. So you’re right that I left out a possible pronounciation of “ch.” (Of course, most Americans pronounce “loch” to be a homophone of “lock,” which is why I forgot it.) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/23 "2011-11-14T23:43:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Thanks! > > I’m not counting the /s/+/h/ combos, but _cashmere_ and _welsh_ are exactly what I had in mind. I can’t recall hearing the latter pronounced with a /tʃ/ and the end, but both the Oxford English Dictionary & Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary have that as an acceptable alternate. I think that if you are using it as an adjective describing someone or something from Wales, Welsh is pronounced with a regular “sh”, but if it is to welsh on a deal it may be pronounced as “welch” (or “weltsh” if that is clearer). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/24 "2011-11-14T23:46:25Z")
How is “Welsh” not pronounced with a “Sh” sound? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/25 "2011-11-14T23:49:17Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I think that if you are using it as an adjective describing someone or something from Wales, Welsh is pronounced with a regular “sh”, but if it is to welsh on a deal it may be pronounced as “welch” (or “weltsh” if that is clearer). Yes, but I’ve always seen the verb spelled with _ch_ at the end. Also, as the designation /tʃ/ implies, the “ch” sound is just /t/ and /ʃ/ smushed together, albeit so quickly that it’s all but impossible for native speakers of English to hear. I certainly can’t, though it’s voiced counterpart of /dʒ/ is a lot more obvious to me as being a blend of /d/ and /ʒ/. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/26 "2011-11-14T23:52:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > How is “Welsh” not pronounced with a “Sh” sound? Merriam-Webster gives /welch/ as an acceptable variant. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/27 "2011-11-15T00:04:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Merriam-Webster gives /welch/ as an acceptable variant. I didn’t realize this until now, but the expression I grew up with was “to welch on a bet,” but apparently, it’s actually “to welsh on a bet,” with “welsh” pronounced as “welch.” (ETA: Although now I see Merriam-Webster has an entry for “welch” as a variant of “welsh.”) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/28 "2011-11-15T00:13:56Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I didn’t realize this until now, but the expression I grew up with was “to welch on a bet,” but apparently, it’s actually “to welsh on a bet,” with “welsh” pronounced as “welch.” (ETA: Although now I see Merriam-Webster has an entry for “welch” as a variant of “welsh.”) I think welshing on a bet/deal was originally a racial slur against the Welsh. Perhaps the altered pronunciation began as a half-hearted gesture towards political correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Karen\_Lingel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karen_lingel/32/18649_2.png) [@Karen\_Lingel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karen_Lingel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/29 "2011-11-15T01:54:48Z")
[Welsh on a Bet](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/794/why-cant-prince-rainier-become-a-king) (follow-up letter.) ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/30 "2011-11-15T06:32:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Thanks! > > I’m not counting the /s/+/h/ combos, but _cashmere_ and _welsh_ are exactly what I had in mind. Glad I could help! But none of the other words I listed had /s/ + /h/ combos. “Dishonest” and “dishonor”, for example, are just /s/, with a mute \, and “newshour” is /z/ with a mute \. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/31 "2011-11-15T07:00:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Nope. Those are words in which /ʃ/ is spelled in a way other than “sh.” I’m looking for the reverse: words in which “sh” represents a sound other than /ʃ/. > > **Chronos** , the [del]proper[/del] Scottish “ch” of _loch_ is a different plosive. In the International Phonetic Alphabet, that phoneme is represented by /x/ (which of course is not that of /k/ + /s/ one hears at the end of _box_, because that would be too easy. So you’re right that I left out a possible pronounciation of “ch.” (Of course, most Americans pronounce “loch” to be a homophone of “lock,” which is why I forgot it.) I’m going to nitpick here and point out that /x/ is a fricative, not a plosive. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/32 "2011-11-15T08:17:18Z")
I have heard the “welch” pronunciation" for “welsh”, but never “cazhmere” for “cashmere”. How many people actually pronounce it that way? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/33 "2011-11-15T09:11:20Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I have heard the “welch” pronunciation" for “welsh”, but never “cazhmere” for “cashmere”. How many people actually pronounce it that way? Among Americans, enough that Merriam-Webster lists that pronunciation first. The OED, on the other hand, lists only the /ʃ/ variant. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/34 "2011-11-15T09:13:22Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Here’s a quick search of the CMU pronunciation dictionary for all words spelled with a \, excluding those with a \, which do not include the phonemic sequence /ʃ/ or /ʃh/: Sorry; that last bit should have read “the phonemic sequence /ʃ/ or /sh/”. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/35 "2011-11-15T09:57:14Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Among Americans, enough that Merriam-Webster lists that pronunciation first. The OED, on the other hand, lists only the /ʃ/ variant. Phew. I was starting to panic that I have been pronouncing it “wrong” all these years (as clearly it is a word I use often). I’m struggling to think how it would sound without a /ʃ/. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/36 "2011-11-15T10:31:37Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I think cashmere (with a French-ish zh) might be what you are looking for, but doesn’t this come from a proper noun, the region of Kashmir? So, is it OK if the word isn’t a proper noun, but comes from one? In what dialect is the “sh” in cashmere “zh”? It’s a straight “sh” where I come from. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/37 "2011-11-15T14:16:27Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > In what dialect is the “sh” in cashmere “zh”? It’s a straight “sh” where I come from. As **psychonaut** mentions, it’s common in the American dialects. I say “cashmere” with the voiced “zh” sound, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/38 "2011-11-15T14:37:13Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I’m going to nitpick here and point out that /x/ is a fricative, not a plosive. You are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/39 "2011-11-15T14:39:56Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I have heard the “welch” pronunciation" for “welsh”, but never “cazhmere” for “cashmere”. How many people actually pronounce it that way? Where are you from? I can’t recall ever hearing it with as “cashmere”; only “cazhmere.” I was raised in Memphis. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925/40 "2011-11-15T14:58:23Z")
I know you didn’t ask for proper nouns, but as we’ve exhausted the other possibilities, here are a couple: Cheshunt (a town north of London) is pronounced ˈtʃesənt or ˈtʃezənt. Bosham, in Sussex, is ˈbɒzəm (but nearby Cosham is ˈkɒʃəm) Edit: “cashmere” is never anything other than “cash-meer” for me (UK). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-looking-for-english-words-in-which-the-digraph-sh-respresents-a-phoneme-other-than/602925.md?page=3)