# I'm no racist but... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 9, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274 "2005-08-09T14:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/21 "2005-08-09T18:13:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And then have a bunch of people leap to your defense and say, “we have to understand **Airman** ’s motivations! Isn’t it partly Bills fault?” Well, if Airman desperately needed that $500 because Bill actively supported policy keeping **Airman** in the dirt, how could it NOT be partly Bill’s fault? In light of Capt. Amazing’s point about the majority of the extremists coming from non-impoverished backgrounds, I’d be interested in knowing which Arab and/or Muslim nations have received any aid from the US? Of those, which ones are breeding grounds of anti-US hatred? Surely we’re not giving the Saudis any aid. Unless you consider out oil patronage “aid.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/22 "2005-08-09T18:46:25Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > In light of Capt. Amazing’s point about the majority of the extremists coming from non-impoverished backgrounds, I’d be interested in knowing which Arab and/or Muslim nations have received any aid from the US? Of those, which ones are breeding grounds of anti-US hatred? Surely we’re not giving the Saudis any aid. Unless you consider out oil patronage “aid.” Here’s the appendix from the 2005 State Department budget request, in PDF. [http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/28783.pdf](http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/28783.pdf) Looking only at Arab countries, at the 2004 estimate, in thousands: Development assistance: Lebanon: 400 Morocco: 5,400 Economic Support Fund: Egypt: 571,608 Jordan: 348,525 Lebanon: 34,794 Yemen: 11,432 West Bank/Gaza: 74,558 Middle East Partnership Initiative: 89,469 ME Regional Cooperation: 5,467 NED Muslim Democracy Programs: 3,479 Military Education and Training: Algeria: 550 Bahrain: 600 Egypt: 1,200 Jordan: 2,900 Lebanon: 700 Morocco: 1,750 Oman: 1,000 Saudi Arabia: 25 Tunisia: 1,750 Yemen: 1,000 Military Financing: Bahrain: 24,850 Egypt: 1,292,330 Jordan: 204,785 Morocco: 9,940 Oman: 24,850 Tunisia: 9,940 Yemen: 14,910 Peacekeeping: Multinational Force and Observers: 16,303 Contributions for International Peacekeeping Operations: UN Disengagement Observer Force on the Golan Heights: 11,289 UN Interim Force in Lebanon: 25,395 UN Mission for the Referendum in Western Sahara: 11,718 Then of course, we contribute to various UN agencies, which also operate in the MENA region, and our assistance to Iraq isn’t listed there. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/23 "2005-08-09T19:00:49Z")
To answer your other question, there are anti-US and Salafist groups (the two aren’t synonomous) in all of the countries I listed, but remember that in most cases, these are oppositionist groups…they don’t control their respective governments and, in many cases, the movements are illegal. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/24 "2005-08-09T19:04:27Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > But the rant was about the e-mail as a bit of short-sighted hate-mongering. Even though I wasn’t really clear about that. I don’t think I’d get too much resistance if I suggested the real problem lies in that the DESIRE to blow innocent people up exists in the first place, and that the problem would be much better solved by addressing the basis for that desire. Where’s the hate mongering? What you view as such others (I) view as data, information. Turniing a blind eye to it because it makes one uncomfortable is irresponsible. While you might rationally object to acting on information in a particular manner, how can you possibly have a problem with amassing information and its analysis? > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Of course I don’t support profiling for this problem. Because as soon as The Bad Guys figure out that the swarts are bing inspected they’ll recruit disillusioned Reds, Yellows, Whites & Blacks who’ve lived in the US their entire lives to do their work–on behalf of Islam or general liberation from an exploitive & uncaring government. So then the profile will have to be broadened to “Everybody.” Which is where it should be anyway. So, if I understand you, EVEN IF it was shown to you that profiliing was, in fact, effective, meaning that it would stop specific terrorist acts and save lives, you would STILL be agaiinst it. Is that a correct assessment of your position? Also, do you understand that those who are in favor of having profiing on the table do NOT hold that whatever profile used today would necessarily be effective tomorrow, and that the profile might (probably) need to change as the data dictate? (Not to mention, be one factor of possibly many.) Just because a particular profile might cease making sense and we stop it in favor of broadening the pool of likley suspects to include “ALL” tomorrow, why does that mean that it is an invalid or ineffective tool today? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/25 "2005-08-09T19:24:13Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Well, if Airman desperately needed that $500 because Bill actively supported policy keeping **Airman** in the dirt, how could it NOT be partly Bill’s fault? > > In light of Capt. Amazing’s point about the majority of the extremists coming from non-impoverished backgrounds, I’d be interested in knowing which Arab and/or Muslim nations have received any aid from the US? Of those, which ones are breeding grounds of anti-US hatred? Surely we’re not giving the Saudis any aid. Unless you consider out oil patronage “aid.” Well, I was thinking about places like Afghanistan and Kuwait. **Captain Amazing** seems to have covered the foreign aid aspect of it. But 9/11 happened mostly because US soldiers set foot in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, which was waged on behalf of the Arab nation of Kuwait. And bin Laden benefitted from US military aid in driving out the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan. And then when the Taliban formed later and took over Afghanistan, they gave aid and comfort to bin Laden. This despite the aid we gave Afghanistan earlier and Kuwait later. Which looks a lot to me like taking our $500 and then trying to kill us for our pains. If you see what I mean. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/26 "2005-08-09T19:27:29Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Of course I don’t support profiling for this problem. Because as soon as The Bad Guys figure out that the swarts are bing inspected they’ll recruit disillusioned Reds, Yellows, Whites & Blacks who’ve lived in the US their entire lives to do their work–on behalf of Islam or general liberation from an exploitive & uncaring government. So then the profile will have to be broadened to “Everybody.” Which is where it should be anyway. I don’t really have a definitive position that I’m happy with on profiling as a whole, but your logic is flawed. I don’t have the time or knowledge to give a comprehensive analysis of the situation here, but let’s say that we have one billion dollars to spend on airport security this year, and we need to inspect 100 million travellers, 10 thousand of whom are arab-looking men aged 17 to 40. If we use no profiling at all, then we will give each traveller $10 worth of inspection. If we took profiling to a ridiculous extent, we would give each of the 10 thousand profiled guys $100,000 worth of inspection. Now, I think you’re probably right that this latter approach would, overall, be less effective, as we’re now giving each non-profiled guy $0 worth of security, and all they need to do is find even a single white guy who is willing to blow himself up, and presto, successful terrorism. However, what if we were to allocate our resources such that all of the nonprofiled passengers received $9 worth of inspection, but the profiled passengers received $10,000 worth of inspection? Now, it would be MUCH harder for generic Mr. terrorist to sneak onto the plane himself, and while it might be a tad easier for a white recruit of his to sneak on, if every one of his plans has to involve recruiting martyrdom-ready white guys, with the additional risk that he’s recruiting undercover cops instead, well, the net result could well be an overall improvement in actual security. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/27 "2005-08-09T19:41:55Z")
Let me just add, to the foreign aid list, and similar to **Shodan** ’s comments, is that the fact we give these governments foreign aid is one of the reasons the extremist groups in those countries hate us. So, for example, we give Egypt all sorts of funding. The extremist groups in Egypt, whose goal is to overthrow the Egyptian government, see this, and dislike us for it, because, in their view, we’re propping up a corrupt and evil regime. ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/28 "2005-08-09T19:45:10Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Let me just add, to the foreign aid list, and similar to **Shodan** ’s comments, is that the fact we give these governments foreign aid is one of the reasons the extremist groups in those countries hate us. > > So, for example, we give Egypt all sorts of funding. The extremist groups in Egypt, whose goal is to overthrow the Egyptian government, see this, and dislike us for it, because, in their view, we’re propping up a corrupt and evil regime. Do you have a cite for this? Not that I doubt you, but I was unaware of this point and would like to read more on it to combat my own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/29 "2005-08-09T19:57:31Z")
A cite for which? That we give aid to Egypt or that the Egyptian extremists want to overthrow the Egyptian government? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/30 "2005-08-09T20:01:46Z")
Alright **Captain** , take your 3-dimensional arguments over to GD. You’re making this way too complicated. It’s hot outside and almost 2:00 in the afternoon where I am, so that means my point is now: “racial profiling as an element of security is an inflamatory compromise in an activity that should see NO compromise if it is to ensure the safety of the people protected.” If it’s really all that important to us, why allow the possibility of failure? Spend the dough and do the techno to identify and sieze the dangerous ordnance before it gets on the plane. Screen EVERYBODY so some properly identified & propositioned disenfranchised punk can’t plant his bomb after being persuaded to participate in the next level of terrorist cleverness. I’m confident it could be done well if everyone accepts the surrender of a little privacy is part of the cost of safety–hell, nobody even has to accept ANYTHING, it could just be mandated as part of Homeland Security. **Greathouse** now it comes to it, I do remember that Egypt gets all kinds of equipment goodies from US…and if I recall correctly, we give slightly better stuff to Israel. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Greathouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greathouse/32/2992_2.png) [@Greathouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greathouse)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/31 "2005-08-09T20:02:37Z")
Well, I had always thought that they were upset with us because we weren’t helping enough. That we were basically living the good life over here in the states and they didn’t have it as nice, and also because the US supports Isreal. So, you’re telling me that they are upset because we financially aid their countries? I honestly, seriously thought that it was pretty much the opposite of that. Oh well, live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/32 "2005-08-09T20:22:36Z")
Yeah. You know that thing we do sometimes? When we install someone like the Shah or Saddam (and didn’t we do this once or twice in South America too?) because they seem like they’ll be good little bitches and make our foreign policies a little easier? And then those guys get all despotic and tyrranical and bossy and start abusing absolute power at the expense of their constituency? Really pisses some people off. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/33 "2005-08-09T20:29:25Z")
> [@Greathouse](#): > > So, you’re telling me that they are upset because we financially aid their countries? I honestly, seriously thought that it was pretty much the opposite of that. Because we aid their country’s governments. For example, here’s a copy of Bin Laden’s 1996 fatwa, where he talks about conditions in Saudi Arabia and how they’re being influenced by the “Crusader-Zionist alliance”: [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa\_1996.html](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html) > [@](#): > > The advisor to prince Nayeff -minister of interior- was not acceptable even to his own country; he was sacked from his position there due to the filthy attitude and the aggression he exercised on his own people, yet he was warmly welcomed by prince Nayeff to assist in sins and aggressions. He unjustly filled the prisons with the best sons of this Ummah and caused miseries to their mothers. Does the regime want to play the civilians against their military personnel and vice versa, like what had happened in some of the neighbouring countries?!! No doubts this is the policy of the American-Israeli alliance as they are the first to benefit from this situation. > > But with the grace of Allah, the majority of the nation, both civilians and military individuals are aware of the wicked plan. They refused to be played against each others and to be used by the regime as a tool to carry out the policy of the American-Israeli alliance through their agent in our country: the Saudi regime. > [@](#): > > Hence it is essential to hit the main enemy who divided the Ummah into small and little countries and pushed it, for the last few decades, into a state of confusion. The Zionist-Crusader alliance moves quickly to contain and abort any “corrective movement” appearing in the Islamic countries. Different means and methods are used to achieve their target; on occasion the “movement” is dragged into an armed struggle at a predetermined unfavourable time and place. Sometime officials from the Ministry of Interior, who are also graduates of the colleges of the Shari’ah, are leashed out to mislead and confuse the nation and the Ummah (by wrong Fatwas) and to circulate false information about the movement. At other occasions some righteous people were tricked into a war of words against the Ulama and the leaders of the movement, wasting the energy of the nation in discussing minor issues and ignoring the main one that is the unification of the people under the divine law of Allah. > [@](#): > > At the time when the Ummah has not regained the first Qiblah and the rout of the journey of the Prophet (Allah’s Blessings and Salutations may be on him), and despite of all of the above, the Saudi regime had stunt the Ummah in the remaining sanctities, the Holy city of Makka and the mosque of the Prophet (Al-Masjid An-Nabawy), by calling the Christians army to defend the regime. The crusaders were permitted to be in the land of the two Holy Places. Not surprisingly though, the King himself wore the cross on his chest. The country was widely opened from the north-to- the south and from east-to-the west for the crusaders. The land was filled with the military bases of the USA and the allies. The regime became unable to keep control without the help of these bases. You know more than any body else about the size, intention and the danger of the presence of the USA military bases in the area. The regime betrayed the Ummah and joined the Kufr, assisting and helping them against the Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/34 "2005-08-09T20:33:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Just because a particular profile might cease making sense and we stop it in favor of broadening the pool of likley suspects to include “ALL” tomorrow, why does that mean that it is an invalid or ineffective tool today? Because the only way we get the data that invalidates the profile is from successful attacks. In other words, we need to wait for the weaknesses we deliberately institute to be exploited before we act to rectify them. In the mean time, we are giving an increased chance of success to any person who cares to exploit it. In effect, we indefinitely cement the terrorists in a position one step ahead of us. Oh, and the reason the email is shit, and not “data” as you would have it, is because it is selective in the extreme. If, for my PhD, I perform 1000 experiments, and select for publication only the 10 that fit my hypothesis, I would expect to be out on my arse before I could dismantle my bunsen; I have not collected “data”, I have quite thoroughly falsified my results. This email does exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/35 "2005-08-09T20:49:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, if I understand you, EVEN IF it was shown to you that profiliing was, in fact, effective, meaning that it would stop specific terrorist acts and save lives, you would STILL be agaiinst it. Is that a correct assessment of your position? I don’t know about Inigo, but it’s certainly a correct assessment of mine. Soviet Russia, Red China, Castro and Saddam may agree with you, but freedom-loving Americans shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/36 "2005-08-09T21:00:28Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Yeah. You know that thing we do sometimes? When we install someone like the Shah or Saddam (and didn’t we do this once or twice in South America too?) because they seem like they’ll be good little bitches and make our foreign policies a little easier? And then those guys get all despotic and tyrranical and bossy and start abusing absolute power at the expense of their constituency? Really pisses some people off. That’s true. We certainly have done that in the past, both in the Middle East and Latin America. However, it’s important to remember that the main opposition to these regimes aren’t democratic liberals. Bin Laden’s group wants to overthow the Saudi regime (which isn’t democratic or free) and replace it with a theocracy (which also won’t be democratic or free). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/37 "2005-08-09T21:36:32Z")
Given how popular the piece of trash mentioned in the OP is, perhaps the best thing to do is to write a counter-quiz and send it out whenever it pops its head: \*1. In 2003 the United States started an unprovoked war with falsified intelligence by: a. Groucho Marx b. Ann Landers c. Lassie d. a rich white Republican male 1. In 1972, five men tried to bug the offices of the Democratic National Committee at the Watergate hotel and office complex under the orders of a. Shaquille O’Neil b. Farrah Fawcet c. Beanie and Cecil d. a rich white Republican male\* ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/38 "2005-08-09T21:37:35Z")
:smack: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/39 "2005-08-09T23:05:20Z")
> [@Jackknifed Juggernaut](#): > > I don’t know about Inigo, but it’s certainly a correct assessment of mine. Soviet Russia, Red China, Castro and Saddam may agree with you, but freedom-loving Americans shouldn’t. I wonder who most of the victims of 911 would agree with. Or their families. I guess the basic difference is that you think you can have liberty without life. I don’t. I also believe that the government is duty bound to try to protect us from being blown up, not from having our feelings hurt. Hey, here’s an idea. How about if there were two mass transportation systems, one that uses profiing–and may use race or ethnicity as one of those factors–and another that doesn’t. They both take similar other security steps. And let’s, for this hypothetical, say that the one that profiles has a better safety record. Now, which one are you going to take your six-year-old daughter on. I guess you already answered that by volunteering that you agree with this: “So, if I understand you, EVEN IF it was shown to you that profiliing was, in fact, effective, meaning that it would stop specific terrorist acts and save lives, you would STILL be agaiinst it. Is that a correct assessment of your position?” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274/40 "2005-08-09T23:55:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I wonder who most of the victims of 911 would agree with. Or their families. That’s extraordinarily cheap of you, **magellan**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-no-racist-but/316274.md?page=3)