# I'm not giving up my seat **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431 "2013-01-16T22:34:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![resting](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@resting](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/resting)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/821 "2013-01-20T15:17:55Z")
The only one who started with the name calling was mean old lady, everyone else was nice. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/822 "2013-01-20T15:22:27Z")
> [@resting](#): > > The only one who started with the name calling was mean old lady, everyone else was nice. Blaming MeanOldLady for being a mean old lady? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![resting](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@resting](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/resting)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/823 "2013-01-20T15:44:41Z")
I’m blaming her for starting the insults in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/824 "2013-01-20T15:58:25Z")
And around we go again :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/825 "2013-01-20T16:14:35Z")
Looking at the start of the thread to some degree **mademoiselle** may have inadvertently set the tone herself. While she posted in IMHO, in retrospect, her op does read a bit like a Pitting of the “entitled” people who think that others like her should move. Her perspective was as **Brynda** articulated: “if I give up my preferred seats that I worked for by coming early to someone who has not worked (came late) and has other options, I am being a sucker.” She then then phrased her question in terms of “who do you think was in the wrong?” Clearly the newcomers were wrong to swear at her, but the IMHO discussion of what we each believe is the normative expectation in a movie theater was to some degree then cast in “right” and “wrong” terms (you are “wrong” if you think other than I do) rather than uncovering the different expectations that we had not realized were there. It is clearly a shock to “the movers” that a large number of people, perhaps even a majority of unique posters, would not even consider asking anyone else to move under those circumstances, and consider the request an uncommon one (even if it is one they would typically grant). ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/826 "2013-01-20T16:21:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Ah. You fly directly into the two posts right before yours. See, because you personally have a belief that moving over in a movie theater is a social norm/expectation that is common knowledge, you believe that it is a belief that everyone has. But not everyone does. You can’t prove the existence of some social norm analytically. But it’s just like the rules of fashion and style. Some people claim they don’t exist and are happy to flaunt them, and those people are quietly judged and mocked by everyone else. It doesn’t matter what any one person _believes_ about the existence of the norm but about how it structures everyday social relations. The latecomers asked the OP to move because they expected that she would say yes. They expected she would say yes either because they could force her physically (clearly not the case), because the OP was wearing an ASK ME TO MOVE sign (self-evidently not the case), or they believed that this was the sort of thing people do. I’m betting on the last. There is a lot of common knowledge that some people never manage to learn. That doesn’t mean that the knowledge isn’t common, it just means that they are, wait for it, undersocialized. ---
**Author:** ![resting](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@resting](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/resting)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/827 "2013-01-20T16:23:02Z")
Where did you learn it was common knowledge? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/828 "2013-01-20T16:34:36Z")
> [@resting](#): > > Where did you learn it was common knowledge? By occasionally leaving my house and interacting with people. I live in the same place as the OP and have lived here pretty much my whole life. If you are at least vaguely sensitive to how people act, you pick up on social conventions all the time. We’re practically wired as human beings to do this. Things get confused here because people are treating this as though it were some kind of universal moral law to get up and move. It’s not. Here we are used to major invasions of personal space, lots of daily indignities cheek & jowl with other people, and a highly competitive social environment. So we have some very nice little social norms that make interpersonal relations with strangers easier. We also have a pretty famous tolerance for lateness. Part of it comes from massive self-absorbtion, chronic business, and reliance on mass transportation. So I don’t understand people getting all het up about someone walking into a movie 5 minutes late. That doesn’t even ping my radar. It’s purely conventional. You may do this differently in your town. That’s super. But you have your conventions too, that I might think are brain damaged if you put them on the block to analyze. ---
**Author:** ![resting](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@resting](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/resting)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/829 "2013-01-20T16:44:01Z")
Well your insulting attitude and condescending tone indicate to me that you know nothing about good manners. No one has ever indicated to me in any way shape or form that one has to move from a seat when there are other seats around the movie theatre. ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/830 "2013-01-20T16:53:17Z")
**Maeglin,** using your language, in my part of the world, the people who asked her to move were the unsocialized dogs. You, in your last post, seem to understand that while we all have unspoken social rules, those rules differ by area of the country, how crowded the area is, the event, etc. That type of understanding has not been common in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/831 "2013-01-20T17:02:37Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > You can’t prove the existence of some social norm analytically. But it’s just like the rules of fashion and style. Some people claim they don’t exist and are happy to flaunt them, and those people are quietly judged and mocked by everyone else. It doesn’t matter what any one person _believes_ about the existence of the norm but about how it structures everyday social relations. The latecomers asked the OP to move because they expected that she would say yes. They expected she would say yes either because they could force her physically (clearly not the case), because the OP was wearing an ASK ME TO MOVE sign (self-evidently not the case), or they believed that this was the sort of thing people do. I’m betting on the last. > > There is a lot of common knowledge that some people never manage to learn. That doesn’t mean that the knowledge isn’t common, it just means that they are, wait for it, undersocialized. Have you ever worked retail? People ask for stuff that they are not entitled to all the time, and that they have no reasonable expectation of getting. People shoplift stuff, then expect to get a refund for it. People expect to get gifts of merchandise equal to the amount that they’ve purchased (for instance, buying a $10 sandwich and getting another $10 in sodas and sides thrown in). People let their kids play with the merchandise, and let the kids break the merchandise and expect not to pay. People that have never been in the shop before expect the clerks to let them take merchandise on the promise that they’ll be back to pay for it later. So, just because someone expects something doesn’t make it a social norm. Hell, the latecomers expected to text throughout the movie…and as far as I know, this is almost universally looked down upon. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/832 "2013-01-20T17:05:29Z")
> [@resting](#): > > Well your insulting attitude and condescending tone indicate to me that you know nothing about good manners. No one has ever indicated to me in any way shape or form that one has to move from a seat when there are other seats around the movie theatre. I am insulting you quite intentionally. I am glad the tone is clear in writing. I was afraid that my calculated offense would be failing on deaf ears, but I am glad to hear that it’s not. > [@Brynda](#): > > **Maeglin,** using your language, in my part of the world, the people who asked her to move were the unsocialized dogs. > > You, in your last post, seem to understand that while we all have unspoken social rules, those rules differ by area of the country, how crowded the area is, the event, etc. That type of understanding has not been common in this thread. I don’t blame you for the fact that **resting** was dropped on his head as a small child. I don’t agree with everyone who takes the same position as I have, either. Whether a request like the latecomers’ is reasonable depends entirely on a more general set of social expectations. Where there is tons of space in general and fewer excuses for being late, I can see that it might be less reasonable. But here, it’s perfectly reasonable and that’s what makes the OP out of step. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/833 "2013-01-20T17:10:03Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Have you ever worked retail? People ask for stuff that they are not entitled to all the time, and that they have no reasonable expectation of getting. People shoplift stuff, then expect to get a refund for it. People expect to get gifts of merchandise equal to the amount that they’ve purchased (for instance, buying a $10 sandwich and getting another $10 in sodas and sides thrown in). People let their kids play with the merchandise, and let the kids break the merchandise and expect not to pay. People that have never been in the shop before expect the clerks to let them take merchandise on the promise that they’ll be back to pay for it later. > > So, just because someone expects something doesn’t make it a social norm. Hell, the latecomers expected to text throughout the movie…and as far as I know, this is almost universally looked down upon. Obviously my expectation that you will spontaneously combust won’t make it so. But if you think about this some more, you should be able to tell the difference between individual delusional expectations and shared, self-enforcing ones. If everyone believed they could walk into a store, take what they wanted without paying and leave, we wouldn’t have stores. So one person with delusional expectations can’t be confused with a norm because the existence of the store itself contradicts the consequences of a general expectation that everyone would be a looter. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/834 "2013-01-20T17:27:57Z")
So to you **Maeglin** if you think something is “common knowledge” then no experience with a large number of people who have a different understanding of what the unspoken rules are will convince you otherwise? Those many who have a different understanding of the unspoken rules are “undersocialized” … Oh. Perhaps you are claiming that only the subculture of New York City has that as the clearly understood unspoken rule. I may be from Chicago but my wife and her family are all from and in New York and the surrounding areas. I’ve gone to movies with them many times. They have the same understanding as I have. The op is a New Yorker and does not share your assessment as New York having this unspoken rule that many of the rest of us undersocialized peasants from the wide open rustic wilds of places like Chicago do not have. I am sure that you think that virtually everyone else in New York at least shares your belief. I am also _absolutely positive_ you are mistaken. Maybe if you got out and interacted with people more than “occasionally” you’d find that out too. Although I seriously doubt you could actually handle the diversity of cultures and cultual norms that is New York City. So yeah, keep those interactions only occasional - it’s safer for you that way. Again, the fact that those who are the rudest and crudest here are the one who claimed and continue to claim that others moving for them when they come in late is what is expected and to not move for them would be rude, and the less rude posters are the ones who seem to claim otherwise, informs to no small degree. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/835 "2013-01-20T17:49:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So to you **Maeglin** if you think something is “common knowledge” then no experience with a large number of people who have a different understanding of what the unspoken rules are will convince you otherwise? Those many who have a different understanding of the unspoken rules are “undersocialized” … Plenty of people in New York don’t think that waiting on line or not taking up multiple seats on the subway are unspoken rules. Maybe a large number of people believe this. But that’s immaterial. Someone may not believe that waiting on line is an unspoken rule, but if they barge into one with their groceries, someone is probably going to say something nasty or start an argument. It doesn’t matter whether any individual believes that there is such a rule; it matters whether enough other people are willing to punish you if its breached. You can be socially punished for anything by some crazy person once. But at some point, when enough people start telling you to stop spreading your legs on the train, even if you think you are well within your rights to do so, you are being an asshole. This is exactly what happened to the OP. She was socially punished (by what sound like assholes, ftr) for doing something that defied social expectation. > [@](#): > > Oh. Perhaps you are claiming that only the subculture of New York City has that as the clearly understood unspoken rule. I may be from Chicago but my wife and her family are all from and in New York and the surrounding areas. I’ve gone to movies with them many times. They have the same understanding as I have. The op is a New Yorker and does not share your assessment as New York having this unspoken rule that many of the rest of us undersocialized peasants from the wide open rustic wilds of places like Chicago do not have. Obviously she doesn’t, and she was in an uncomfortable social situation as a result. Clearly, she wins! > [@](#): > > I am sure that you think that virtually everyone else in New York at least shares your belief. I am also _absolutely positive_ you are mistaken. Of course not everyone shares my belief. Plenty of people believe they can war certain kinds of clothes (they can’t) or that someday they will be President (they won’t) or that they don’t have to tip their supers. Great. There is no grand existential penalty to having wrong beliefs. They can just make you unhappy and turn daily life into a set of unnecessary conflicts. If your wife needs to take head measurements of the person in front of her to optimize her seat selection, well, it is what it is. I am sure she is a great person in every other respect. But it sounds awfully complicated for going to a movie. These conventions exist to help condition our expectations about what the other crazy members of our species will do in common social situations. The OP was distressed enough by the situation and the social punishment she received to start a thread about it. I certainly think she would have been better off if she had acted differently. > [@](#): > > Maybe if you got out and interacted with people more than “occasionally” you’d find that out too. Although I seriously doubt you could actually handle the diversity of cultures and cultual norms that is New York City. So yeah, keep those interactions only occasional - it’s safer for you that way. Again, the fact that those who are the rudest and crudest here are the one who claimed and continue to claim that others moving for them when they come in late is what is expected and to not move for them would be rude, and the less rude posters are the ones who seem to claim otherwise, informs to no small degree. [/QUOTE] These two paragraphs don’t agree. The first was pretty fucking rude, and I have no beef with you. **resting** ain’t right, but you’re a good guy and I just disagree with you. That was no less rude than anything any of the rules lawyers have said above. We’re all in the gutter here. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/836 "2013-01-20T17:53:25Z")
Funny. I just ran a google search for “new york movie theater seating move manners” - first link is [this](http://www.yelp.com/topic/new-york-movie-theatre-etiquette): > [@](#): > > Talk New York … It seems as though people are running low in etiquette these days. Let me school those of you who think it is OK to come to a showing late and ask people to move their spots so that you may get a seat of your liking or sit with your people - DON’T! Some of us have the decency of coming as early as half hour (especially if it’s opening weekend or a recently released movie), wait in line, and get the seat of our liking. Because we pay good money to watch the movie, we want to enjoy it to the utmost from the best seat (according to us) in the theater. Some of us like seating all the way in the front. Others chose the middle. Yet others choose to be in a corner so they can go to the bathroom as often as they like. DON’T FRIGGIN’ ASK PEOPLE TO MOVE! If there’s a seat open take it. If people put their bags/clothes in an empty seat, ask them to move it. But don’t ask people to move! That’s rude! Just like you wouldn’t ask someone you don’t know to cut in line. If you care so much about good seating. If getting a good seat is important to you come early, tell a friend to save you a seat, or catch the next friggin’ show! [Another link on page one](http://www.ifc.com/fix/2011/08/movie-theater-etiquette-manifesto): > [@](#): > > 1. Sit Directly In Front of Someone Only When There Are No Other Seats Available. Only a-holes sit directly in front of someone they don’t know just because they “like” that seat. > > 2. Leave a Buffer Seat Between Ourselves and Strangers Whenever Possible. Only psychopaths sit immediately next to a stranger when they can sit somewhere else. True story: one time a guy sat down directly next to we, the undersigned, in a theater with dozens of empty seats. He wore his sunglasses through the entire film and occasionally turned and stared at we for minutes at a time. We, the undersigned, promise never to be that guy. … [Page two.](http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2007/08/movie-theater-etiquette.html) > [@](#): > > Never ask me to move over a seat so it’s more convenient for your party of six. In terms of the behavior of [the latecomers](http://voices.yahoo.com/proper-etiquette-visiting-movie-theater-1890590.html). > [@](#): > > Get in your seat before the lights go off. > > There are people that rush to the movies to make sure that they see the previews. Then there are those that show up after the lights go down. They slowly walk through a row of already seated people trying to get to a seat. Not only is it disruptive to people who have to stand up to let you through, but it’s disruptive to those that are seated and trying to see around you. Make every effort to get to the movie at least ten minutes before the movie starts and twenty minutes before if you are planning on getting food so you can be seated before the lights turn off. I have no interest in looking more, but so far no support of your position as being the norm. To me it seems that you misunderstand what is social convention more than our op does. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/837 "2013-01-20T17:58:18Z")
Someone on Yelp has an opinion, **imagine that!** ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/838 "2013-01-20T18:01:47Z")
And it was the unsocialized dogs who asked her to move who got punished. They didn’t like it and tried to punish her back. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/839 "2013-01-20T18:01:55Z")
Yes, whenever I want to find out how civilized people behave I go to Yelp and Yahoo. Then I do the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431/840 "2013-01-20T18:02:17Z")
Wow, a Yelp comment that looks like it might be a direct summary of some of the posts in this very thread. I’m not sure that this proves anything, but it’s … interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-not-giving-up-my-seat/647431.md?page=43)