# I'm now boycotting any food product that says anything about "Carbs" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 5, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263 "2004-04-05T00:41:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/161 "2004-04-09T18:19:15Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Well, I probably should let this whole discussion go, but I guess _I’m_ like a crack addict for _arguing_.😉 > > What you are describing is a situation where you went off your diet and over-ate. I’m still not seeing what ketosis had to do with it. This isn’t rocket science. You gained a couple pounds over the holidays, just like everyone else does. It wasn’t that you had carbs, it’s that you had _too many_. Too much of _anything_ will cause you to gain weight (except non-digestible things, of course). Now, I’m sure you will come back and say that’s _not_ what happened - you seem to have a way of saying something and then coming back and saying that’s not what you said. But I don’t think I’m misconstruing “I just said the Hell with the diet and ate what I wanted”. If you just say “the Hell with the diet”, you’re gonna gain weight, ketosis or no. It’s not that simple. Right now, I’m doing a cyclic ketogenic diet, which means that six days a week, I eat about 30-40 grams of carbohydrates per day, and on Sundays, I eat fruit, vegetables, and even grains. Generally, I’ll be three pounds heavier on Monday morning than I was Sunday, and I’ll be back down to Sunday’s weight by Tuesday or Wednesday morning. Now, do you really think that I’m eating enough to gain three pounds on Sunday and working out enough to burn it all in two days? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/162 "2004-04-09T20:29:48Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > It’s not that simple. Right now, I’m doing a cyclic ketogenic diet, Why? > [@](#): > > which means that six days a week, I eat about 30-40 grams of carbohydrates per day, and on Sundays, I eat fruit, vegetables, and even grains. > > Generally, I’ll be three pounds heavier on Monday morning than I was Sunday, and I’ll be back down to Sunday’s weight by Tuesday or Wednesday morning. Now, do you really think that I’m eating enough to gain three pounds on Sunday and working out enough to burn it all in two days? You have provided insufficient data to answer that question. Is your caloric intake the same on Sunday as it is the rest of the week? I have read that the induction phase of Atkins results in a loss of _water weight_. Could this be a similar phenomenon where you’re just losing water, then replenishing it? Without knowing more details of what is different between Sunday and the rest of the week, how can I answer your question. For all I know, you could be eating a half-gallon of ice cream every Sunday night. You haven’t made it clear at all. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/163 "2004-04-09T20:44:07Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > What you are describing is a situation where you went off your diet and over-ate. I’m still not seeing what ketosis had to do with it. Ketosis has a couple of things to do with it. First, it’s an indication that you’re not metabolizing all the calories you ingest. Those ketones in your urine and on your breath are products of incomplete fat metabolism - you’re peeing calories. Second, once you’re in ketosis, food cravings largely go away. You just don’t feel that hungry. I did count calories for a while on Atkins (not adjusting my diet - just to see what I was eating). It took substantially fewer calories before I felt full than it did when I was eating grains and sugar. The thing that turns Atkins dieters into evangelists is that it’s so much _easier_. You can eat as much as you feel like, and you’re not distracted by food cravings all the time. No one absentmindedly eats a dozen hard-boiled eggs, but lots of people have scarfed down a whole bag of chips. Or even a half-dozen pieces of toast with jam. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/164 "2004-04-09T21:14:40Z")
[Atkins dogma] Ketosis has a couple of things to do with it. First, it’s an indication that you’re not metabolizing all the calories you ingest. Those ketones in your urine and on your breath are products of incomplete fat metabolism - you’re peeing calories. Second, once you’re in ketosis, food cravings largely go away. You just don’t feel that hungry. I did count calories for a while on Atkins (not adjusting my diet - just to see what I was eating). It took substantially fewer calories before I felt full than it did when I was eating grains and sugar. The thing that turns Atkins dieters into evangelists is that it’s so much _easier_. You can eat as much as you feel like, and you’re not distracted by food cravings all the time. No one absentmindedly eats a dozen hard-boiled eggs, but lots of people have scarfed down a whole bag of chips. Or even a half-dozen pieces of toast with jam.[/Atkins dogma] ---
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_Coward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@Anonymous\_Coward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anonymous_Coward)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/165 "2004-04-09T21:21:29Z")
Wow, nice rebuttal blowero. I’m amazed at the amount of skill it took to take another posters argument, wrap a faux tag around it, and present it as an argument. You won me over. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/166 "2004-04-09T22:00:37Z")
> [@Anonymous Coward](#): > > Wow, nice rebuttal blowero. I’m amazed at the amount of skill it took to take another posters argument, wrap a faux tag around it, and present it as an argument. You won me over. Yeah, like I and others haven’t been presenting cogent arguments throughout this entire thread, to which the Atkins fanatics simply reply with “Ketosis - eat as much as you want - ketosis - I don’t count calories - carbs are evil - ketosis - bad, bad carbs - eat as much as you want.”:rolleyes: There’s simply nothing to refute in ENugent’s post. It’s just all the _claims_, with none of the proof. A couple of you seem to think that losing weight proves that ketosis is the cause, EVEN IF YOU WOULD HAVE LOST WEIGHT ANYWAY. When I point it out, you just say “But ketosis does this & that”. That’s circular reasoning. I mean, do you understand the difference between a _claim_, and proof of that claim? It’s like saying that Clearasil causes acne, because everyone who uses Clearasil has acne. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/167 "2004-04-09T22:28:43Z")
Are you disputing that ketosis is associated with ketones in the urine and on the breath? Or that ketones are a product of incomplete fat breakdown? Or that ketosis is associated with reduced appetite? All of these are certainly verifiable claims, unlike your “you would have lost weight anyway” dogma. As you yourself described above, this mantra is not falsifiable, so why should we listen to it? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/168 "2004-04-09T23:42:50Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > You have provided insufficient data to answer that question. Is your caloric intake the same on Sunday as it is the rest of the week? I have read that the induction phase of Atkins results in a loss of _water weight_. Could this be a similar phenomenon where you’re just losing water, then replenishing it? Without knowing more details of what is different between Sunday and the rest of the week, how can I answer your question. For all I know, you could be eating a half-gallon of ice cream every Sunday night. You haven’t made it clear at all. Ah, now you’re distinguishing between water weight and other types. How come you didn’t ask those questions of **BiblioCat**? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/169 "2004-04-09T23:42:53Z")
And why the hell do people _ **care** _ so fucking much, other than to be complete assholes to their (apparently) nutritional inferiors? “Yeah, you lost weight! But it’s not what you think! Where’s yer Messiah noooow?!” I’m surprised none of the anti-Atkins people have brought the urban legend that Dr. Atkins was obese when he died (or that his death was because of his alleged obesity) as “proof” that Atkins is a lie, a damned lie, and a scam. If Atkins works for people, leave them the fuck alone! All I see out of the anti-Atkins crowd is an awful lot of weight-loss sabotage. ---
**Author:** ![Inoshiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a9adbd/32.png) [@Inoshiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inoshiro)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/170 "2004-04-10T00:52:52Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > Are you disputing that ketosis is associated with ketones in the urine and on the breath? Or that ketones are a product of incomplete fat breakdown? Or that ketosis is associated with reduced appetite? All of these are certainly verifiable claims, unlike your “you would have lost weight anyway” dogma. As you yourself described above, this mantra is not falsifiable, so why should we listen to it? As I understand it ketosis is simply associated with the breakdown of fats (either from the diet or stored in the body) to use as energy. As such I would expect to see it whenever the body’s energy needs are not met in the diet. My diet is fairly high in carbs but I’m losing weight. I track my caloric input and output (see previous post for details) and there’s a deficit. I wonder if I would test positive for ketones myself right now. BTW - does anyone know where to get the ketone strips? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/171 "2004-04-10T01:24:55Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Generally, I’ll be three pounds heavier on Monday morning than I was Sunday, and I’ll be back down to Sunday’s weight by Tuesday or Wednesday morning. Now, do you really think that I’m eating enough to gain three pounds on Sunday and working out enough to burn it all in two days? I’m noit really getting this. Do you weigh yourself everyday? If so, why? It has been my experience that my weight can fluctuate 2 pounds in either direction from day to day, regardless of my diet in the preceeding days. I heard an OA speaker say that only statues have a set weight. Humans have a weight _range._ Of course, I could be wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/172 "2004-04-10T02:01:27Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > Ketosis has a couple of things to do with it. First, it’s an indication that you’re not metabolizing all the calories you ingest. Those ketones in your urine and on your breath are products of incomplete fat metabolism - you’re peeing calories. Oh for fuck’s sake… if I’ve read anything in this entire thread which is pure bullshit, that has got be it. So get this fundamental biological fact through your head, OK? If we eat too many calories, regardless of whether they’re proteins, fats, or carbohydrates, out comes the signal to store the excess glycogen as body fat. Conversely, when the body requires glycogen stores to be topped up within the liver, it sends a signal to start breaking down energy stores contained in body fat cells. That is the definition of ketosis. It happens to 100% of us every day during our sleep as we’re fasting. We go into and out of ketosis sometimes 4 or 5 times a day depending on how active we are, and when was the last time we ate. It is 100% independant of the food we ate. It is utterly dependant on the number of calories we’ve eaten in the last 24 hours. The claim that “removing carbohydrates from your general diet induces a permanent state of ketosis” is pure crap. Unadulterated crap. The only thing that counts is calories. If you ate enough in the last 24 hours, you’ll be hovering just on the verge of either adding to, or decreasing your body fat stores. The only determinant, the ONLY thing that counts, is how many calories you’re averaging each day in comparison to what you’re burning up. Shit, what can I say? Somebody on the Straight Dope Message Board just claimed that ketosis allows them to actually urinate unburnt calories. Holy shit. Arguably the most ludicrous thing I’ve read thus far in my time here… > [@Inoshiro](#): > > As I understand it ketosis is simply associated with the breakdown of fats (either from the diet or stored in the body) to use as energy. As such I would expect to see it whenever the body’s energy needs are not met in the diet. My diet is fairly high in carbs but I’m losing weight. I track my caloric input and output (see previous post for details) and there’s a deficit. I wonder if I would test positive for ketones myself right now. BTW - does anyone know where to get the ketone strips? Exactly! You understand correctly my friend, and the sooner all this ketosis fantasy crap is cleared up the sooner a bunch of quacks stop making easy money from the gullible. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/173 "2004-04-10T02:09:05Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And why the hell do people _ **care** _ so fucking much, other than to be complete assholes to their (apparently) nutritional inferiors? > > \ > > If Atkins works for people, leave them the fuck alone! All I see out of the anti-Atkins crowd is an awful lot of weight-loss sabotage. Here’s my beef… since time immemorial people have known this simple truism, if you do the work, you lose the weight. The problem is that we in the Western World have become, by and large, a fucking lazy culture. We’re no longer hunters and gatheres and very, very few of us actually work the land to grow and provide our food. By extension, this means that we are easy prey for those who would try to make money out of a quick fix to sort out the inexorable obesity problem which is exploding throughout the entire Western World (not just the USA it should be noted). And I’m here to say this… just burn the calories people. You can eat as much as you want if you’re guaranteed of burning it off. Just think of the Tour de France. No fat guys in that race, huh? And yet they eat up to 9,000 calories a day during the Grand Tours. That pretty well sums it up in one fell swoop. The problem is that for all of our post-industrial modern knowledge, the bottom line is that we (generically speaking) are a lazier species than ever before in human history. Ergo, the Atkins diet is wank. If you do the work, you lose the weight. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/174 "2004-04-10T07:31:49Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Ah, now you’re distinguishing between water weight and other types. How come you didn’t ask those questions of **BiblioCat**? Did you read the post? I ASKED “Could it be”? I suggested it as a possibility, and said that you didn’t give enough information to know. Please try to read the posts rather than just getting worked up and spouting off a knee-jerk reaction. BiblioCat says she lost close to 70 pounds. You can’t lose 70 pounds in water weight (at least not while staying alive). YOU are talking about a fluctuation of THREE POUNDS, which, as spooje pointed out, is within the range that people’s weight fluctuates all the time. Personally, my weight goes up or down a couple of pounds constantly. Very, very different situation from BiblioCat’s. Besides, I didn’t know I was _required_ to ask everyone the same questions. You asked me if I believed you were “eating enough to gain three pounds on Sunday and working out enough to burn it all in two days?” Like I said, you didn’t provide enough information to answer the question. I suggested the _possibility_ that it was water weight, but it’s not the _only_ possibility. And yes, their _is_ most certainly a difference between water weight and fat. Sure, you lose weight when you are dehydrated, but it’s not any healthier. In fact, it’s bad for you. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/175 "2004-04-10T07:37:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And why the hell do people _ **care** _ so fucking much, other than to be complete assholes to their (apparently) nutritional inferiors? Not to speak for the OP, but I believe he was just blowing off a little steam about how he’s sick of hearing about “carbs” every second of every day. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe anyone _forced_ the Atkins crowd to poke their heads in here and argue about it. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/176 "2004-04-11T21:09:04Z")
> [@Michael Ellis](#): > > Don’t blame me, blame California. Great tacos, but no decent BBQ that I’ve found. It’s making me all weird. Dude. You’re trying to find barbecue in _California_? It’s impossible to find any good barbecue west of Texas and north of North Carolina. Or so I’ve been told. Vile stuff gives me the Toxic Tummy Upset of Doom. And to make this relevant to this thread: When in Concord NC last month, my fiance saw a sign advertising “LOW-CARB STORAGE UNITS”. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/177 "2004-04-12T00:50:28Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > Conversely, when the body requires glycogen stores to be topped up within the liver, it sends a signal to start breaking down energy stores contained in body fat cells. That is the definition of ketosis. It happens to 100% of us every day during our sleep as we’re fasting. We go into and out of ketosis sometimes 4 or 5 times a day depending on how active we are, and when was the last time we ate. It is 100% independant of the food we ate. It is utterly dependant on the number of calories we’ve eaten in the last 24 hours. > > The claim that “removing carbohydrates from your general diet induces a permanent state of ketosis” is pure crap. Unadulterated crap. Then explain to me, in simple terms, how it is that I am consistently producing ketones in my urine. Tell me how I have managed to keep myself in ketosis, if it’s nothing to do with my intake. Explain to me slowly, because I’m one of the Atkins loonies and clearly incapable of thought, how it is that I managed to lose my first 25 pounds while eating between _3000_ and _4000_ calories a day and not changing my activity level whatsoever. I do not deny that over the long term, Atkins followers will eat fewer calories than they would have otherwise, because our cravings for food generally disappear. However, that is not the only mechanism at work here. If you can answer these questions, I’ll concede that you may be right: [ol][li]Why am I in ketosis all the time?[/li][li]Why have I not lost any muscle mass in the 51 pounds I have dropped, even though I’ve not changed my activity level in the slightest? Mind, that the last time I lost this much weight it was through a recommended high-carb, high-protein, low-fat diet, and most of the weight I lost was muscle mass.[/li][li]Why am I no longer ever hungry, to the point that I have to remind myself to eat?[/ol][/li]As I’m sure you’re aware, ketosis suppresses the appetite and draws down the body’s fat reserves. My constantly being in ketosis could easily answer the second two questions, so the real question for then remains: _Why am I in ketosis all the time?_ ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/178 "2004-04-12T01:07:39Z")
So, **BooBooFoo** , would I be wrong in saying that you’re probably a big fan of the [Amish Diet](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040122.wamish0122/BNStory/specialScienceandHealth/)? What pisses me off on the whole Adkins thing is that it’s _just a fad diet_ and will soon be replaced by some other diet in a couple of years. Meanwhile at least one of the grocery stores in town has _dumped_ 99% of the organic foods they used to carry and replaced them with “Lo-carb” foods. Great, I’m **not** fat (in fact when I casually mentioned to my doctor that I thought I needed to lose a couple of pounds, she was **adamant** that I not lose **any** weight at all), and I like to buy organic foods when I can afford them, but thanks to the Adkins craze I now have to find a different grocery store to buy the stuff at (and no doubt have to pay **more** for it there, than I would if my regular store still carried it). ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/179 "2004-04-12T02:24:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And why the hell do people _ **care** _ > > “Yeah, you lost weight! But it’s not what you think! Where’s yer Messiah noooow?!” I’m surprised none of the anti-Atkins people have brought the urban legend that Dr. Atkins was obese when he died (or that his death was because of his alleged obesity) as “proof” that Atkins is a lie, a damned lie, and a scam. > **[Dr. Robert Atkins' Death](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/death-of-a-diet-doctor/)** > > Did Dr. Robert Atkins, proponent of the low-carbohydrate diet, die of a heart attack read it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263/180 "2004-04-12T03:30:34Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > [http://snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp](http://snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp) > > read it yourself. Um…yeah? Snopes lists the possibility of Atkins having fallen and injured his head because of a heart attack as “undetermined”. There are other ways to have heart attacks than because of an unhealthy diet, you know. His weight at death was 258, but his weight of record at admission immediately after the fall was 195, not “obese” by any measure. And the [Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine](http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/23), which was instrumental in circulating an alleged medical examiner’s report that listed the heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertension, is an unreliable group associated closely with PETA and their ultravegetarian agenda. They’ve even taken on the March of Dimes because the research on birth defects uses animal test subjects. They’ve been censured by the AMA. This is not a reliable source. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-now-boycotting-any-food-product-that-says-anything-about-carbs/238263.md?page=10)