# I'm out of sticks and carrots. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 10, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301 "2015-02-10T16:44:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/121 "2015-02-12T15:18:03Z")
So the kid has a job and earns his own money, but doesn’t have any control over that either? That’s not discipline, that’s a dictatorship. You may want to re-examine your carrots and sticks, as a lot of this seems like this poor kid has no control over anything. He works to earn money, and he’s going to spend it on crap. That’s because he’s a kid. In my opinion, the way he’s going to learn about things is by screwing them up. He’s got his $60 a week, he spends it on skittles, and then he doesn’t have money for the concert ticket. When he comes to you to complain or ask for money, you tell him no, without any lectures. That’s how he learns about making good decisions on his own. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/122 "2015-02-12T15:26:04Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > As to what methods my parents instilled, that’s what I don’t entirely understand. The fear itself was enough. The fear of having my parents angry at me, yelling at me. Withdrawing their love from me. Don’t your kids care about that? Maybe it’s because my parents didn’t indicate they loved me unconditionally. They were wrong to do that, and I haven’t hidden that I don’t like a lot of their parenting methods - but I never got the idea it was OK to slack off in school. Anecdotally, I had this convesation with a colleague a while back. Over some work related lunch time function we go to talking about our respective kids and their school habits and the frustration we both discovered we shared about our respective kids being unmotivated and irresponsible and goofing off when they should be studying. I really felt like we connected over the same kinds of common struggles of kids not completing assignements or handing them in, etc. As it turned out a little later, we could not be further apart. While my son brings home D’s on average, her son of the same age is in all AP classes and she was complaining about his occasional B’s and that he’d never get into engineering or medical school. Coincidentally (or maybe not), they are Indian. It isn’t that our expectations of our kids are different. It’s that some kids care about their marks and some don’t, regardless of ethnicity. And I’ve yet to identify what drives one and not the other. Perhaps it’s genetics as I didn’t care much about my marks in high school either. But I was in AP science classes and applied myself enough to get into college. Like my son, I suppose I gamed the system too, for my own ends. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/123 "2015-02-12T15:30:15Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > So the kid has a job and earns his own money, but doesn’t have any control over that either? That’s not discipline, that’s a dictatorship. You may want to re-examine your carrots and sticks, as a lot of this seems like this poor kid has no control over anything. > > He works to earn money, and he’s going to spend it on crap. That’s because he’s a kid. In my opinion, the way he’s going to learn about things is by screwing them up. He’s got his $60 a week, he spends it on skittles, and then he doesn’t have money for the concert ticket. When he comes to you to complain or ask for money, you tell him no, without any lectures. That’s how he learns about making good decisions on his own. Without getting deep into history of my merital discord, his mother and I have been divorced for some time and we do not see eye to eye on some fundamentals. I pick my battles. Having said that, I’m not entirely convinced her approach is completely wrong. When he realized that an enforced saving regimen lead him to have a few hundred dollars in his account in a fairly short period, I think he learned a healthy respect for the discipline of saving. At least that’s my impression of things at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/124 "2015-02-12T15:30:36Z")
**WhyNot** ’s advice makes the most sense to me, but my background is most like **Anaamika** ’s (except not Asian). I notice that you keep dismissing punishment as vindictive and capricious, and insisting that you can solve the dilemma through reason. In a way, that shows a lot of respect for your son as a human being, but I still think it shows very little respect for the ways in which he is different from you, notably that his is a teenaged brain and his ability to plan for the long term and act accordingly is inchoate. I’m not suggesting punishment now that I’ve read further in the thread, but I do think you should stop seeing it as vindictive and choose to reject it for different reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/125 "2015-02-12T15:31:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Perhaps I wasn’t very clear. He exhibits no desire to drop out of high school. He has friends there. He manages to barely pass his subjects at the end of the year. Mostly it’s because the teachers take pitty on him and drag his ass across the line with bonus assignments which he grudgingly completes. So he’ll graduate high school with full credits. If he’s lucky, at this rate, he’ll do so with something in the area of a 1.6 - 1.8 GPA. So not exactly college material. But certainly CC material. And despite expressing the desire to go to college, CC is probably where he should be calibarting his sights for the initial couple of years post secondary school education. Yeah, my son’s school allows them to retake exams as many times as needed to pass, which is 70%. You must get at least a C in a class or you do not pass and do not get credit for taking the class. D’s don’t even exist at his school. Anything below 70% receives a mark of NC (no credit). They don’t allow extra credit assignments and the kid is responsible for going tot he teacher to arrange to retake the test. It is not at all like when we were in school. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/126 "2015-02-12T15:39:44Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **WhyNot** ’s advice makes the most sense to me, but my background is most like **Anaamika** ’s (except not Asian). > > I notice that you keep dismissing punishment as vindictive and capricious, and insisting that you can solve the dilemma through reason. In a way, that shows a lot of respect for your son as a human being, but I still think it shows very little respect for the ways in which he is different from you, notably that his is a teenaged brain and his ability to plan for the long term and act accordingly is inchoate. I’m not suggesting punishment now that I’ve read further in the thread, but I do think you should stop seeing it as vindictive and choose to reject it for different reasons. I choose not be be ‘vindictive’ in my punishment because my goal is to raise him to be the person I want him to be as an adult, not the person he is now. ---
**Author:** ![MissTake](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misstake/32/3189_2.png) [@MissTake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissTake)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/127 "2015-02-12T15:45:10Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I think technical schools are great. Trade schools are great. What I have trouble comprehending is the sort of “Whatever you like, dear,” attitude that I see sometimes. They’re your kids! They need to eat for the rest of their life… > > As to what methods my parents instilled, that’s what I don’t entirely understand. The fear itself was enough. The fear of having my parents angry at me, yelling at me. Withdrawing their love from me. Don’t your kids care about that? Maybe it’s because my parents didn’t indicate they loved me unconditionally. They were wrong to do that, and I haven’t hidden that I don’t like a lot of their parenting methods - but I never got the idea it was OK to slack off in school. Unfortunately, on this message board, trade school/tech schools are frowned upon. I don’t think I had a “whatever you like, dear” attitude. She knew I expected her to do her best, but she also knew I was not going to stand over her and demand perfection. She could not attain it. She also knew I love her unconditionally. Discipline was always in the “I love you, but dislike your actions” vein. It was very difficult at times, as it was not how I was raised. I just couldn’t deal with the fights, the stress, the putting the blame on myself anymore. I had to let go and let her fail and accept that I didn’t fail her, she failed herself. AND I made sure she was clear on that fact. Once she understood her actions led to her outcomes, she chose to get her act togeher. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/128 "2015-02-12T15:47:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I choose not be be ‘vindictive’ in my punishment because my goal is to raise him to be the person I want him to be as an adult, not the person he is now. That’s great, but I don’t think you understood what I said. I’m in complete agreement that punishment shouldn’t be vindictive. I just think you’re a little quick to dismiss any non-passive punishment as vindictive, at least based on what you say here. I also think you’d be better off raising the person you have now than the one you want him to be, but at the end of the day he’s better off having your love and support and failing out of school than getting straight As and entering adulthood with a four-year degree and severe emotional baggage. —Exhibit A ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/129 "2015-02-12T15:51:11Z")
^^Agreed. I started working when I was 12 and I bought my own car at 15, so having a car wasn’t something my parents could really take from me. They could, however, tell me where and when I could use the car. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/130 "2015-02-12T15:51:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If I may ask, what were you in genuine fear of when you got a B, instead of an A? What methods did your ‘typical asian parents’ practice to instill that sense of fear and responsibility? I didn’t have typical Asian parents and my parents didn’t push me all that hard, but like **Anaamika** , I was also terrified of making poor grades and failing. Some people are blessed with natural confidence in themselves and optimism that everything will always work out alright. I have never been like this. From the very beginning of my school career, I believed that every bad grade I received would be used as evidence that I was a stupid or lazy human being. I didn’t care about my looks. Didn’t care about being popular or beloved. But I did care about being perceived as intelligent and hard-working. I went to school with a lot of kids who were slackers. While I swallowed every scary warning about being a lifelong fry jockey if I got a C in a class, they just laughed. Why would’t they? They had confidence in themselves, while I did not. If he’s not learning how to be responsible and accountable at school, then I say you’ve got to make him learn it a different way. I like the idea of having him do something productive at least an hour a day. If he doesn’t want to crack a book, make his ass push a vacuum cleaner or fold laundry. Put him in the kitchen and have him make dinner for everyone (something more complicated than the perfect grilled cheese sandwich). Whatever needs to be done when you get home from work, have him do it. A car is not a right, so you are not obligated to give him one. You aren’t obligated to give him an allowance either. If he refuses to be productive even in a non-academic way, then start charging him rent. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/131 "2015-02-12T15:56:27Z")
Sometimes when a student becomes a D or F student, there’s such a mountain to climb that they quit all the more. It doesn’t take much motivation for someone who is 2/3 the way up Mount Everest to finish the climb. But it takes a lot of motivation for someone who has fallen to the very bottom of Everest to begin the climb anew. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/132 "2015-02-12T15:59:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I didn’t have typical Asian parents and my parents didn’t push me all that hard, but like **Anaamika** , I was also terrified of making poor grades and failing. > > Some people are blessed with natural confidence in themselves and optimism that everything will always work out alright. I have never been like this. From the very beginning of my school career, I believed that every bad grade I received would be used as evidence that I was a stupid or lazy human being. I didn’t care about my looks. Didn’t care about being popular or beloved. But I did care about being perceived as intelligent and hard-working. > > I went to school with a lot of kids who were slackers. While I swallowed every scary warning about being a lifelong fry jockey if I got a C in a class, they just laughed. Why would’t they? They had confidence in themselves, while I did not. > > If he’s not learning how to be responsible and accountable at school, then I say you’ve got to make him learn it a different way. I like the idea of having him do something productive at least an hour a day. If he doesn’t want to crack a book, make his ass push a vacuum cleaner or fold laundry. Put him in the kitchen and have him make dinner for everyone (something more complicated than the perfect grilled cheese sandwich). Whatever needs to be done when you get home from work, have him do it. > > A car is not a right, so you are not obligated to give him one. You aren’t obligated to give him an allowance either. If he refuses to be productive even in a non-academic way, then start charging him rent. This is lovely. Yes, I felt the same way - my self confidence and sense of worth was entirely tied up in two things: my grades, and my dancing. And it’s small wonder my dancing was my biggest joy, because I could do it well and my parents didn’t care if I did well, as long as I enjoyed myself. I also like the idea of other responsibility. I feel it might help the kid find out what he actually wants to do! Because, my parents wanted me to go to medical school, and that was totally wrong for me, and it took me a long time to realize that! I guess that’s what it is, too. The natural confidence I see that everything will turn out all right scares the bejesus out of me. I have never believed that. And I am an optimistic, happy person! But I just don’t believe anyone will ever pick me up if I fall down, except for myself. So my parents instilled that in me. See, I never had unconditional love, not even from my parents, and I never really believe(d) it existed. It’s nice to hear some kids get it, but with my childhood the way it was, I don’t think I could ever fully have faith in it. Love is for what you do, not who you are. This is a fascinating conversation. I am sorry I hijacked the thread though. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/133 "2015-02-12T16:02:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You know, I’m glad this worked for you, but it fills me with rage. What the hell is the point of her history class, if it isn’t to give you an opportunity to learn history? She wants to teach a work habits class, she should sign up to teach a work habits course. Call it dronery 101 or something, see how many folk take it. If you already know all the material in her class and can ace the class without doing homework, either she’s failed as a teacher by not giving you an appropriate challenge, or your school has failed you by putting you in her class. > > The goal of a history class should be to learn history. Not to learn to jump through hoops. Every child has ample fucking opportunity to learn that trick in their time in school, and it’s not the teacher’s job to make students jump through pointless hoops. > > Teachers like that, IMO, need to be removed from the classroom. Not because she gave you a failing grade, but because she failed to teach you. bullshit. if completing assignments is required to pass the class, then any student who doesn’t should fail. If they want to be a special snowflake and Rage Against the Machine, they can do it on their own time. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/134 "2015-02-12T16:06:01Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > That’s great, but I don’t think you understood what I said. I’m in complete agreement that punishment shouldn’t be vindictive. I just think you’re a little quick to dismiss any non-passive punishment as vindictive, at least based on what you say here. > > I also think you’d be better off raising the person you have now than the one you want him to be, but at the end of the day he’s better off having your love and support and failing out of school than getting straight As and entering adulthood with a four-year degree and severe emotional baggage. > > —Exhibit A I appreciate what you’re saying, **Dr. Drake**. I’ve not witheld my love and support from him. I’ve also never set expectations of A’s. Not because he’s incapable of them but because it would be ridiculously unrealistic given his personality. My struggle has been for him to meet me half way. I find myself in a place where I must adjust my expectations further. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/135 "2015-02-12T16:19:48Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > See, I never had unconditional love, not even from my parents, and I never really believe(d) it existed. It’s nice to hear some kids get it, but with my childhood the way it was, I don’t think I could ever fully have faith in it. Love is for what you do, not who you are. > > This is a fascinating conversation. I am sorry I hijacked the thread though. I’m not. It may not help **Quicksilver** ’s kid, but it’s great for me to see someone else write these words! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/136 "2015-02-12T16:32:45Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > bullshit. if completing assignments is required to pass the class, then any student who doesn’t should fail. That’s poor pedagogy. The object of the class should not be to apply sufficient quantities of ink to paper. The object of the class should be to learn. If an assignment’s completion is unnecessary either to complete the object or to demonstrate completion of the object, requiring its completion is the sign of a bad teacher. If a teacher wants to mimic Cartman and shout RESPECT MAH AUTHORITEH, they should do it on their own time. > [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > LHOD, I mostly agree with your basic point, but without knowing the details, I don’t know whether to agree with you about this particular case or not. It’s possible that the tests only tested simple recall of factual details, while the homework assignments included things like critical essays, research papers, etc. that would have demonstrated deeper understanding. I assume you know as well as anyone that there’s more to being educated than being able to pass a test. This, however, is a good point. Homework-as-assessment is perfectly legitimate, if it’s assessing something that’s not assessed through another means. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/137 "2015-02-12T16:36:09Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’m not. It may not help **Quicksilver** ’s kid, but it’s great for me to see someone else write these words! Thanks. 🙂 And it really brings home the heart of the conversation, doesn’t it? Anyway, I hope things work out for **Quicksilver’s** kid, and everyone else’s kid who is not really motivated, I really truly do. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/138 "2015-02-12T16:52:28Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > As to what methods my parents instilled, that’s what I don’t entirely understand. The fear itself was enough. The fear of having my parents angry at me, yelling at me. Withdrawing their love from me. Don’t your kids care about that? Maybe it’s because my parents didn’t indicate they loved me unconditionally. They were wrong to do that, and I haven’t hidden that I don’t like a lot of their parenting methods - but I never got the idea it was OK to slack off in school. Korean parents here. YES to not having indications that my parents loved me unconditionally, and doing well in school at least partially because of being afraid that they’d withdraw their love. In fact, when I later learned about the concept of unconditional love, I was like “…nah, that’s a really weird idea.” Yeah. I’ll add an additional Asian-parent incentive: shame and contempt. What kind of loser gets a B? You’re letting down the whole family! Are you really that dumb? (These are not things that were explicitly said, but there was a whole lot of subtext that generally boiled down to that.) ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/139 "2015-02-12T16:58:51Z")
Put your exoectations aside. Give him the opportunity to have expectations that are his alone. It’s hard to excel at other people’s expectations. You’ve left him no room to surprise or dazzle you, only room for him to comply and measure up. No wonder he’s not interested. He’s not ‘making something of himself’ because you’re busy pushing him into what you feel will be ‘the making of him’. Sometimes ‘the making’ of people is by experiencing mistakes. Now is the time of his life for him to make the mistakes that could be ‘the making of him’, and you’re just gumming up the works. Maybe in his heart he knows his square self is never going to fit into the round hole you’ve got in mind. You’re tried everything else, from the sounds of it. Hand it off to him, and then stay out of it. Keep your opinions to yourself, your suggestion, helpful hints, all of it. Possibly he’s not going to step up until you are ready to step out. You sound quite strident in your expectations of what he ought to do and how he ought to go about it. Maybe it’s time for you to put that aside? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301/140 "2015-02-12T17:01:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > See, I never had unconditional love, not even from my parents, and I never really believe(d) it existed. It’s nice to hear some kids get it, but with my childhood the way it was, I don’t think I could ever fully have faith in it. Love is for what you do, not who you are. For me, my parents’ love had nothing to do with it. I didn’t want to get in trouble–which is why I always tried to be a “good girl”–but my lack of confidence didn’t have anything to do with them. They were always telling me I was super smart. But words weren’t enough. I needed a grade to assure me I was doing okay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-out-of-sticks-and-carrots/712301.md?page=8)