# I'm Proud of My Church **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807 "2003-08-04T01:57:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/1 "2003-08-04T01:57:33Z")
The House of Deputies (priest and lay delegates) of the Episcopal Church today ratified the nomination of the Rev. Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire. > [@](#): > > Deputies OK Robinson as bishop > > Gene Robinson’s journey to becoming bishop of New Hampshire passed a crucial milestone Sunday afternoon when the House of Deputies voted to consent to his election as bishop coadjutor. > > In a vote by orders on resolution C045, lay deputations voted 63 yes, 32 no, and 13 divided. Clergy deputations voted 65 yes, 31 no, and 12 divided. With the deputies’ action, the final decision now rests with the House of Bishops, which will take up Robinson’s consent at 2 p.m. Monday. > > [Rest of the story](http://gc2003.episcopalchurch.org/ens/3577_17817_ENG_HTML.htm?menu=undefined) [My own bishop will vote for him tomorrow.](http://episdionc.com/bishops.htm#statement) And the church came up with a resolution providing for same-sex blessings ([story here](http://gc2003.episcopalchurch.org/ens/3577_17813_ENG_HTML.htm?menu=undefined).) I know this is going to irk a few people, so I’m posting it in GD to allow them to argue, but I just want to say how proud I am that I belong to a church that accepts and welcomes its gay members and has raised one of them to a position of leadership and ministry. ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/2 "2003-08-04T02:18:20Z")
I hope you saw the poll at CNN on whether the Reverend’s nomination should be ratified… When I looked, it was 79% (of the 80,000 votes cast) in favor of ratifying the nomination of Rev. Gene Robinson as Bishop. Apparently our society is willing to accept the Reverend too, at least 79% of them. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/3 "2003-08-04T02:53:03Z")
As proud as you are, **Polycarp** , I’m disappointed that the delegates took the easy path and have decided to turn away from scripture and 2000 years of church tradition to march lock-step with popular culture. As you know (and welcome), the approval of Robinson’s nomination means that the Episcopal Church has come right out and endorsed homosexual relationships such as the one in which he is involved. Regardless of the outcome of the debates surrounding the various resolutions on same-sex marriage, the Church has taken a stand, and you and I could not be farther apart in our opinions of the correctness of their decision. “I believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church” and know that the worlwide Anglican communion will be preserved – but this is a damaging and devisive vote, not only within the US but between the ECUSA and the rest of Anglicanism worldwide. It’s unfortunate that the hubris of some in the ECUSA – their total disregard for scripture and tradition – has led them to “doing what seems right in their own eyes.” The vote of the House of Bishops tomorrow is a foregone conclusion. It will be interesting to see how the debate on same-sex marriages proceeds. Unfortunately, this vote is going to cause a lot of pain in our little church (I say ‘little’ because there are only about 800,000 Episcopals remaining in the US now). Which is good, in a way, because in the long term the church will be stronger. But in the short term we are perilously off course. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/4 "2003-08-04T03:01:24Z")
**Skammer** , I don’t propose to get into a knock-down, drag-out fight with you on this or any other issue, but I would just like to go on record that **Siege** and I and my wife, at least, take the stand we do based strictly on Biblical principles – the ones Jesus taught as what we should do first and foremost. I won’t judge others, but for us it’s not a question of “what popular culture wants” or “taking the easy way” but rather a sincere attempt to follow our Lord. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/5 "2003-08-04T03:10:49Z")
Has the Bishop for Northern California announced his plans yet? ---
**Author:** ![chuckster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@chuckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chuckster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/6 "2003-08-04T03:47:57Z")
As soon as I saw the word ‘proud’ in your post title, I knew it must have to do with homosexuality. How come we no longer have ordinary homosexuals and transexuals anymore, we have ‘proud homosexuals’, and ‘proud transexuals’? I suppose some people think that if the word ‘proud’ is used often enough in front of the most shameful behaviors described in the Bible, it will somehow stop being shameful just by force of their opinions. If a person can be ‘proud’ of homosexuality, I suppose they can be ‘proud’ of just about anything. I am a ‘proud’ Southern Baptist, and am most ‘proud’ that the Southern Baptists have chosen to stick to the written word of the Bible regardless of what popular culture says. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/7 "2003-08-04T04:12:54Z")
How many fabrics are in your shirt, **chuckster**? ---
**Author:** ![Splanky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@Splanky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Splanky)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/8 "2003-08-04T04:16:42Z")
Do you really think homosexuality is among the _most_ shameful behaviors in the bible, **chuckster**? As I once heard someone say, ‘It’s not even in the top ten!’. Do you really think you’ve stuck to the written word? Are you without sin? I find this unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/9 "2003-08-04T04:25:24Z")
> [@](#): > > How come we no longer have ordinary homosexuals and transexuals anymore, we have ‘proud homosexuals’, and ‘proud transexuals’? You seem to have missed the point. I have no idea if **Polycarp** is gay or not, but if you read _the rest_ of the post title, and his first post, he says he’s proud of _his church_ for being accepting. I’d say good for the Episcopalians - it’s overdue, but I guess at least they’re ahead of some other churches. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/10 "2003-08-04T04:56:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I am a ‘proud’ Southern Baptist, and am most ‘proud’ that the Southern Baptists have chosen to stick to the written word of the Bible regardless of what popular culture says. Yep, that’s exactly what they did when “popular culture” tried to come along and tell them that slavery was wrong. That’s why they broke off and formed the Southern Baptist Convention, in fact. They had to give up on slavery, but they held tight to their beliefs in segregation as they vigorously opposed the civil rights movements of the 60s. They finally admitted that they were wrong about that and apologized–in 1995. But they didn’t change at the whims of popular culture, mind you…it’s just that God, uh, changed his mind. That’s it. Dr. J (recovering Southern Baptist) ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/11 "2003-08-04T05:06:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > I have no idea if **Polycarp** is gay or not… I’m not one to jump to conclusions or anything, but he did mention his wife in his second post to this thread… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/12 "2003-08-04T05:06:57Z")
In view of the fact that I said this: > [@](#): > > **Skammer** , I don’t propose to get into a knock-down, drag-out fight with you on this or any other issue, but I would just like to go on record that **Siege** and I and my wife, at least, take the stand we do based strictly on Biblical principles – the ones Jesus taught as what we should do first and foremost. I won’t judge others, but for us it’s not a question of “what popular culture wants” or “taking the easy way” but rather a sincere attempt to follow our Lord. 46 minutes before **Chuckster** decided to post this: > [@](#): > > As soon as I saw the word ‘proud’ in your post title, I knew it must have to do with homosexuality. How come we no longer have ordinary homosexuals and transexuals anymore, we have ‘proud homosexuals’, and ‘proud transexuals’? I suppose some people think that if the word ‘proud’ is used often enough in front of the most shameful behaviors described in the Bible, it will somehow stop being shameful just by force of their opinions. If a person can be ‘proud’ of homosexuality, I suppose they can be ‘proud’ of just about anything. I am a ‘proud’ Southern Baptist, and am most ‘proud’ that the Southern Baptists have chosen to stick to the written word of the Bible regardless of what popular culture says. I’d like him to specify whether he’s assuming that the alternative to “sticking to the written word of the Bible” is “accepting popular culture” and accusing me of the latter. If that is indeed the case, I would like him to justify his calling me a liar about my own beliefs to my face. On the other hand, we’ve discussed at lengths what Jesus expects of His followers around here, and “sticking to the written word of the Bible” ranks way, way below loving one’s neighbor as oneself, judging in mercy and compassion as one hopes to be oneself judged, recognition that one is not oneself righteous in and of oneself and therefore has no right to condemn another…. And if I _were_ gay, I’d be proud of what God made me, and try to live out the life He would expect me to live as a gay man. The fact that I made reference to “…and my wife” might have caused a clue to dawn regarding what it was I was proud of – which is that my church, at least, is out to treat gay people as human beings worthy of love and respect, and not as abominations. (Thanks for getting it, **Marley** ; I was beginning to think I’d lost any skill at writing in English! ;)) **Gov. Quinn** , I did check the national church website but found nothing on his intentions. Sorry! ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/13 "2003-08-04T05:16:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > **Gov. Quinn** , I did check the national church website but found nothing on his intentions. Sorry! \*\* Thanks for checking, and, yes, that is my Bishop. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/14 "2003-08-04T05:26:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not one to jump to conclusions or anything, but he did mention his wife in his second post to this thread… Ahh, so he did. Making that post that much more of a non-sequitur. > [@](#): > > I am a ‘proud’ Southern Baptist, and am most ‘proud’ that the Southern Baptists have chosen to stick to the written word of the Bible regardless of what popular culture says. Do you also believe that insects have four legs (Leviticus 11:21), or that stoning to death is an appropriate punishment for disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21:18)? If you don’t, shame on you for kowtowing to popular culture. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/15 "2003-08-04T05:46:10Z")
I think he’s “proud” that his church is standing up for what’s right, rather than adhering to old fashioned prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/16 "2003-08-04T06:27:14Z")
> [@](#): > > **Skammer** : Unfortunately, this vote is going to cause a lot of pain in our little church (I say ‘little’ because \*\*there are only about 800,000 Episcopals remaining in the US \*\*now). Which is good, in a way, because in the long term the church will be stronger. But in the short term we are perilously off course. (bolding mine) I believe you are mistaken. The Episcopal church grew by 13% in membership in the USA between 1990 and 2000. The lowest membership number is almost three times the amount that you have stated. My source is listed below. I would like to know what your source is. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/17 "2003-08-04T06:28:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chuckster \* > How come we no longer have ordinary homosexuals and transexuals anymore, we have ‘proud homosexuals’, and ‘proud transexuals’? Because there are those who think there is some inherent shame in it. > [@](#): > > I am a ‘proud’ Southern Baptist, and am most ‘proud’ that the Southern Baptists have chosen to stick to the written word of the Bible regardless of what popular culture says. Do you and your fellow Southern Baptists also disagree with the modern popular culture (and also scientific) notion that a bat is not a bird, as per Deuteronomy 14: 11-18: > [@](#): > > 11 "You may eat all clean birds. 12 But these are the ones which you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, 13 the buzzard, the kite, after their kinds; 14 every raven after its kind; 15 the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk, after their kinds; 16 the little owl and the great owl, the water hen 17 and the pelican, the carrion vulture and the cormorant, 18 the stork, the heron, after their kinds; the hoopoe and the bat. I’m also interested in where gay sex ranks with the killing of every firstborn/every child under X years old/cutting off someone’s ear/giving one’s daughters up to be raped by visitors. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/18 "2003-08-04T06:31:22Z")
My source: [http://www.adherents.com/rel\_USA.html#families](http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families) “[Adherents.com](http://Adherents.com) is a growing collection of over 41,000 adherent statistics and religious geography citations – references to published membership/adherent statistics and congregation statistics for over 4,200 religions, churches, denominations, religious bodies, faith groups, tribes, cultures, movements, ultimate concerns, etc.” – from their website ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/19 "2003-08-04T06:45:31Z")
I am an Episcopalian also and thrilled at the decisiveness of the vote! Let’s hope that other members of the Anglican Communion soon follow suit. There is nothing more Biblical than laying aside judgment and prejudice and loving one another. BTW, I never did mention the current membership of the Episcipal church: 3,451,000 members as of 2000. It’s the wee small hours of the morning. Tomorrow will be a little like witnessing Joshua marching around the walls of Jericho and seeing them fall. 🙂 Pax ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/20 "2003-08-04T06:49:18Z")
> [@](#): > > have decided to turn away from scripture and 2000 years of church tradition to march lock-step with popular culture. Sometimes, traditions are just people working in lock-step with what was the popular culture a long time ago. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807.md?page=2)