# I'm Proud of My Church **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807 "2003-08-04T01:57:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/81 "2003-08-05T19:28:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skammer \* > \*\ ***Poly** , you’ve been involved with the Episcopal church longer than I have, so I am relying on your account. I know that there have been gay preists in the church, almost certainly more than we even know about. I’ll assume that not all of them were celibate and at least some were open about being in gay relationships, although I do not know that for sure. I am inferring that from your post. > > But now we are talking about the national convention confirming a Bishop of the church. This is a tectonic shift in church policy, a radical change and not the small matter you imply. You know that at the last Lambeth Conference in 1998 the Anglican Community agreed that homosexual activity is “incompatible with Scripture.” By approving this nomination, the national convention puts itself directly at odds with the Worldwide Anglican Communion. > > I know that the root of this is the disagreement over whether or not homosexual sex is sin. I don’t think I can overestimate the dismay of many at seeing the convention endorse activity that: > – church tradition has declared sinful (across denominations, for centuries, until this one) > – Scripture condemns > – Anglicanism has specifically rejected in recent years > > A rector of one of the largest churches in our diocese was interviewed on the local news here last night. He said that something will have to happen in the near future within the ECUSA – that orthodox Episcopalians will not be able to remain in union with those who call sin, acceptable. (His exact words were, “call evil good and good, evil.”) This wasn’t a small country mission – he represents the third largest and fastest-growing parish in the Tennessee diocese. > > What I’m saying is that I’ve seen interviews with Dean Robinson and others that downplay the impact this will have in the church. “They threatened to leave over the ordination of women, and it didn’t happen, so I think a split is unlikely this time.” Unfortunately, I think they are mistaken and gravely underestimate the dismay of the conservatives at this decision. It will take some kind of very meaningful reaching out to them to keep them in the fold (in my opinion). \*\* Sheesh, push a hot button, willya, **Skammer**!! 🙂 First answer is that it’s God’s mercy that Frank Griswold is Presiding Bishop at this time. The man seems like a milquetoast, but his character is solid – and he is **so** compassionate, irenic, and peace-bearing that it takes a real hardnose to insist on arguing with him. If anyone can prevent schism, he’s the man to do it – and I think God had that in mind when He called him. Second answer is that the decisions of Lambeth are not binding on any member church, and John Shelby Spong’s (admittedly biased) account of the backstage maneuvering that led to that resoluition is a real eye-opener. Essentially, Spong and a moderate conservative South African bishop agreed to draft a resolution on human sexuality that would not violate anyone’s principles, and confirmed this arrangement with George Carey, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who then proceeded to stab them in the back by ramming through amendments from the conservative bishops that completely rewrote their draft. As for the “Scripture condemns” portion, let me state affirmatively that Scripture condemns gay sex acts _as a casual gratification of lust_, along with about every other sort of sex act you can name in the same context. I think it’s up to the individual to decide whether that condemnation extends to gay sex acts in other contexts, and then act accordingly. You have to read it in context, of course – and that context includes not sitting in judgment over your brother, but judging his or her acts mercifully and lovingly, in an effort to be of help (and IMHO with as much empathy as you can possibly bring to the table). **Gobear** and **Homebrew** are my beloved friends and brothers; if I thought they were endangering their lives and souls, of course I’d tell them so, as a friend ought to. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/82 "2003-08-05T19:38:12Z")
BREAKING NEWS: Robison has been cleared. The vote will go ahead. [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/05/bishop/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/83 "2003-08-05T19:40:33Z")
good. I’d thought this might be one of those drawn out unneccesary things all over CNN for days. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/84 "2003-08-05T19:50:50Z")
Friar Ted > [@](#): > > RE the possibility of schism- if some Episcopalian Christian parents take seriously the traditional interpretation of Romans 1 & I Cor 6 & view gay sex as sinful, and if the Church which has maintained that view then reverses itself, and if those Christians are trying to raise their children with the traditional view, what choice do they have? The same choice people have when they discover that their traditional interpretation of Genesis 1 is mistaken. The same choice we all have when the veil of ignorance is lifted from our faces. The same choice Jesus had when He chose not to condemn the world. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/85 "2003-08-05T20:49:33Z")
Marley23 > [@](#): > > Do you also believe that insects have four legs (Leviticus 11:21), iampunha > [@](#): > > Do you and your fellow Southern Baptists also disagree with the modern popular culture (and also scientific) notion that a bat is not a bird, as per Deuteronomy 14: 11-18: Do you people really not realize that the Bible was not written in English? Skammer > [@](#): > > It’s happening already… Can we condemn this fragrantly irrelevent accusation (the website thing) Is that a typo or a pun? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/86 "2003-08-05T21:42:05Z")
From CNN > [@](#): > > Lewis, a husband and father of two, “would like everyone to know his statement was meant to be privately conveyed to the governing body of the Episcopal Church and was not to be debated in the secular press,” Midura said. So, someone leaked it? Seeing as a similar situation in England ended with the church leaders essentially forcing the man in question to resign, I really hope Robinson makes it through with wide support. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/87 "2003-08-05T22:34:41Z")
[I’m glad I now understand what "innapropriate touching by a gay man is:](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030805/ap_on_re_us/episcopalians_gay_bishop) any touching whatsoever! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/88 "2003-08-05T22:58:05Z")
Could these allegations have had any less substance? I can’t believe this was anything more than an attempt to give the Bishop Elect one day of bad press out of pure spite. They couldn’t have thought these charges any real teeth behind them. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/89 "2003-08-05T23:01:59Z")
Oh, lovely. Now if there _is_ a schism, it’s Robinson’s fault for not withdrawing from the running, according to the conservative wing… Talk about blaming the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Kallessa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7993a0/32.png) [@Kallessa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallessa)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/90 "2003-08-06T00:20:22Z")
Just heard–they voted to confirm Robinson as bishop by a vote of 62 to 45. **Polycarp** , this is the most impressed I’ve been by a Christian Church in many a year. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/91 "2003-08-06T00:28:34Z")
will this be a trend or something? 🙂 Polycarp for Bishop! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/92 "2003-08-06T00:40:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skammer \* > \*\*…and now let’s hear the obligatory, “Don’t let the door slam you in the ass on the way out.” (not from you, **Poly** , but I expect someone to express that thought) \*\* Well, put those being discriminated against into a different category. Would you expect the church to compromise with its members if those members were opposed to black members/ministers/bishops? IANA Episcopalian, so please don’t think I’m trying to speak for Episcopalians, but when I see institutionalized bigotry against homosexual persons, all I can feel is a sort of pitying disgust. How could someone compromise with something they consider irrationally bigoted? Or even this: The homophobes have had their way for X years (fill in the age of the Episcopalian Church here); how long must your gay brethren wait to be acknowledged? Julie ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/93 "2003-08-06T00:42:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **Sheesh, push a hot button, willya, Skammer!! 🙂** Hey, thanks, I’ll be here all week… > [@](#): > > **First answer is that it’s God’s mercy that Frank Griswold is Presiding Bishop at this time. The man seems like a milquetoast, but his character is solid – and he is so compassionate, irenic, and peace-bearing that it takes a real hardnose to insist on arguing with him. If anyone can prevent schism, he’s the man to do it – and I think God had that in mind when He called him.** I’m not overly familiar with Bishop Griswold, but I have no trouble believing that God has spefically placed him in this position at this time. He has his work cut out for him. > [@](#): > > **Second answer is that the decisions of Lambeth are not binding on any member church, and John Shelby Spong’s (admittedly biased) account of the backstage maneuvering that led to that resoluition is a real eye-opener. Essentially, Spong and a moderate conservative South African bishop agreed to draft a resolution on human sexuality that would not violate anyone’s principles, and confirmed this arrangement with George Carey, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who then proceeded to stab them in the back by ramming through amendments from the conservative bishops that completely rewrote their draft.** I know that the Lambeth statements are not binding (as we proved today). Still, they reflect the state of the debate within the worldwide church and why (I and others) believe this vote to be overly hasty. I wasn’t aware of the background politics. I will leave to your imagination my opinion of Rev. Spong’s views. 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*\*As for the “Scripture condemns” portion, let me state affirmatively that Scripture condemns gay sex acts _as a casual gratification of lust_, along with about every other sort of sex act you can name in the same context. I think it’s up to the individual to decide whether that condemnation extends to gay sex acts in other contexts, and then act accordingly. You have to read it in context, of course – and that context includes not sitting in judgment over your brother, but judging his or her acts mercifully and lovingly, in an effort to be of help (and IMHO with as much empathy as you can possibly bring to the table). **Gobear** and **Homebrew** are my beloved friends and brothers; if I thought they were endangering their lives and souls, of course I’d tell them so, as a friend ought to. \*\* I think this a reasonably defensible interpretation of at least some of the relevent Scripture, though not one that I agree with. (Did I put enough qualifiers in that sentence?) It’s obvious, even on this board, that reasonable people can disagree about it. However I think forcing the issue at this time, in this way, does not promote continued discussion toward finding common ground. I haven’t been able to find this in the news reports, did the conservatives follow through on their promise to walk out after the vote? If the vote was affirmative, they were going to walk out and gather to pray at the Lutheran church across the street. I haven’t seen a report on whether that happened. I guess the next thing to watch is the American Anglican Council meeting in October, which they have said will be “extraordinary” as they decide their next steps. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/94 "2003-08-06T01:11:53Z")
And of course, if they did walk out and go to the Lutheran Church across the street, it’s all Robinson’s fault for not being a good little house faggot and withdrawing because it’s just **so** gauche to challenge injustice, isn’t it? The whole tone of the debate from the fossilized minions of Tradition-Over-Love is just sickening… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/95 "2003-08-06T01:17:44Z")
_jayjay said:_ > [@](#): > > **And of course, if they did walk out and go to the Lutheran Church across the street** I wonder what the Lutherans across the street would actually think of this. I mean, I’m sure the Lutheran Church faces many of these same issues, and wouldn’t the more liberal members have to be seething over this association? Julie ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/96 "2003-08-06T01:26:21Z")
Will this decision act as a catalyst for other churches to change? Does this signify the beginnings of a sea-change in American Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/97 "2003-08-06T01:28:29Z")
Depends on whether it’s Missouri Synod or not, I guess. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/98 "2003-08-06T01:38:54Z")
Well, I’m still kinda stunned by the fact that they can’t pass a resolution removing the onus from homosexuality, but they _can_ vote in an openly gay man as bishop. As we mathematicians say, ==\>\<== . ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/99 "2003-08-06T02:01:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > **And of course, if they did walk out and go to the Lutheran Church across the street, it’s all Robinson’s fault for not being a good little house faggot and withdrawing because it’s just so gauche to challenge injustice, isn’t it?** Hmmm… let’s see… _shuffles papers_ no, I’m sorry, I can’t seem to find that particular accusation here. I may have missed another email. Can you point out exactly where Robinson has been blamed (I don’t think he had a vote today), and who besides you has called him a “little house faggot”? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807/100 "2003-08-06T02:17:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skammer \* > \*\*Hmmm… let’s see… _shuffles papers_ no, I’m sorry, I can’t seem to find that particular accusation here. I may have missed another email. Can you point out exactly where Robinson has been blamed (I don’t think he had a vote today), and who besides you has called him a “little house faggot”? \*\* I didn’t say you made that direct accusation. The article linked to above, however, did suggest that some on the “Tradition” side were seeing things in that light. And I take full responsibility for describing their expectations of Robinson as “house faggot”. They’re mad at him for not sacrificing himself in an invisible flash of self-defacing martyrdom to preserve their right to be hateful, bigoted idiots… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-proud-of-my-church/192807.md?page=6)