# I'm ready for class war. Bring on the socialism! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044 "2009-04-05T09:11:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/21 "2009-04-05T18:28:08Z")
Whoopie, I can choose my own doctor. Now if only there were some way for me to pay for the medical care. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/22 "2009-04-05T18:30:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, it’s self-evident that siimply reading Ayn Rand is a heinous crime. To paraphrase Dorothy Parker, not an author to be set aside lightly, but hurled with great force. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/23 "2009-04-05T18:30:38Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > If you did not earn your money, I want the government to take it from you. This includes everyone whose parents bought their university acceptance slips, anyone who inherited a bunch of money, anyone who gouged the price of a commodity, almost everyone who got rich through a lawsuit, ambulance chasing lawyers, and a million fat corporate executives. > > I want to take away your guns. So far, I have no great problem with this. Actually, I would leave some of the money & the smaller, weaker guns. > [@](#): > > I want your religions to lose any government protection. I want your religions out of my schools. I want your religions out of my courts and out of my government policy. Ultimately, I think it would be best if everyone simultaneously agreed that worshiping spirits is ridiculous, but since we haven’t found a way to cure stupid I realize it’s impossible. Meh. I think a superstitious belief in spirits is perhaps useful to society. It’s the combination of religious pluralism & cultured respect for a variety of inconsistent cockamamie groups that’s worrying; groups like the Org & the People’s Temple can hide behind it. (Oh, great, am I reverting to obscurantism? Apparently.) Fortunately, the example of ancient, pious, pluralist Rome shows us that the present pluralism is unstable & one fanatic group will subsume or annihilate each of the others. I shouldn’t be comforted by that, should I? > [@](#): > > I want every government restriction on unions gone. Organized labor has been consistently opposed by every administration since the inception of unions. Workers and company owners need each other equally, but without organized labor the workers can not bargain on equal footing. I want company executive salary to be tied to a multiple of the pay their workers get. Money is power. The the more money you have, the more power you have to take even more, until almost all of the power is held by a very small number of people, who are acting in their own interests with complete disregard for anything else. This is unacceptable and not reconcilable with a just society. OK. > [@](#): > > I want gays to marry. I don’t care. Bigger fish to fry. > [@](#): > > I want any kind of government censorship abolished. I don’t know what this means. > [@](#): > > I want the size of the military budget reduced to less than 10% of what it is now. I want mandatory impeachment for any president who wants to invade another country, where he states under oath exactly what his reasons are for the invasion. If investigation finds these reasons to be untrue, the president should go to jail. You better be damned sure of your intelligence reports and motivations before you send a bunch of 19 year old kids to die, and kill a bunch of civilians. I like this idea & shall sign on to it. > [@](#): > > I want all recreational drugs legalized, and regulated by the FDA. Let medical experts decide whether a substance is too dangerous to consume, instead of politicians and churches. Erm. I don’t mind leaving PCP & the cocainoids in “controlled” status, but the DEA’s strategy does need to be overhauled. > [@](#): > > I want the USA to disarm its nuclear arsenal first. All of it, without any conditions. Yes. > [@](#): > > I want nuclear power plants everywhere. No. > [@](#): > > I want free health care. I would say, “tax-funded, as the one way to gain actual progressivity in pricing,” but yeah. > [@](#): > > I want nationally accredited private schools gone. > > I want free college tuition everywhere, where your acceptance to a particular school is based only on your academic qualifications. I agree, & will go you one better. Abolish the tuition system & pay university students a small stipend (\< minimum wage). > [@](#): > > I want any executive who accepts a performance bonus from a failing company that laid off workers to go to jail. Seems unobjectionable—or rather, I wonder how those who inevitably will object think themselves plausible. > [@](#): > > And I want a pony. I’m more likely to get all of the above than I am to get the pony. Oh, no, you’re more likely to get the pony. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/24 "2009-04-05T18:31:00Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You might as well just drop a nuclear fucking bomb on America and save yourself all the work, because I can’t see the country continuing to exist under the conditions you’ve proposed. All I can say is, I’m damn glad that you’re not in charge of America. You know, if you were to drop a nuclear bomb on America, that would make all that government health care really expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/25 "2009-04-05T18:31:01Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Sure, it’s self-evident that siimply \*\*\*reading \*\*\*Ayn Rand is a heinous crime. :rolleyes: If it wasn’t clear that “Ayn Rand reading” referred to people who agree with her philosophy, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/26 "2009-04-05T18:36:45Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I think a superstitious belief in spirits is perhaps useful to society. Even if it is useful to society, it doesn’t belong in government policy or public education (or any education) or the legal system. I recognize people’s right to worship spirits, but not their right to impose their particular spirit’s will on the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/27 "2009-04-05T18:38:32Z")
As a form of penance, perhaps? One _Atlas Shrugged_ = 100 years in Purgatory. Seems about right. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/28 "2009-04-05T18:55:58Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I think the most important issue I mentioned is for the working classes to take power from the wealthy elite. You’ve already got the power. As I explained before, the problem is you don’t recognize the power & equality you’ve been given. You don’t want to exercise the power you already have and at the same time, you want all the niceties of life handed to you on a silver platter. But every human being wants gain with no pain. I want it too. No mindblowing insight there. So what’s the point of shouting out your fantasies? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/29 "2009-04-05T22:28:38Z")
Not quite sure what you’re on about here. Clearly, you have some scorn to share, but is it scorn for the “program”, or contempt for our failure to implement it on the time frame you’d prefer? Are you with us, agin us, or just don’t give a rat’s? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/30 "2009-04-05T23:12:17Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I want the size of the military budget reduced to less than 10% of what it is now. … And then give the other 90% to our educational system, please. Our country has this completely bass-ackwards: education should be our absolute, highest priority. Our best and brightest should aspire to be teachers, and we should reward them appropriately. The highest paying job in any field should be that of teacher- _because teachers make more workers in that field._ Get some competition in there, and we’ll start seeing the best teachers. For the most part, I agree with your list. It’s damn near impossible to achieve it, and I’m willing to bet that you know it, too. However, it’s a good idea to aim high and then reach a middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/31 "2009-04-05T23:22:04Z")
“Ayn Rand reading” and “bible thumping” are a tad contradictory. And he’s quite wrong - him getting a pony is _much_ more likely than any of his other ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/32 "2009-04-05T23:41:18Z")
I disagree that education is the answer - or at least education in the sense that it’s being discussed here. We could all be geniuses with 150 IQs and PhDs and it wouldn’t change the fact that America’s domestic industry is all falling apart because the skilled trades are disintegrating. What we need are more tradesmen. We need more people in vocational school and fewer in college. There are thousands of college students right now who would be better off learning skilled trades and going into “hard” industry. American industry needs to be revitalized. The pursuit of alternative energy sources offers a wonderful opportunity to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/33 "2009-04-05T23:42:36Z")
Democracy in action, most of these things will never happen. Some of them, curiously, already have. What you want only matters in terms of how many other voters want the same thing, and for many of your proposals I don’t think there is much chance of there being enough voter support in our lifetime. For some of them, in the lifetime of this country. We may eventually see guns banned but we’ll never see a 90% reduction in defense spending. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/34 "2009-04-05T23:45:19Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I disagree that education is the answer - or at least education in the sense that it’s being discussed here. We could all be geniuses with 150 IQs and PhDs and it wouldn’t change the fact that America’s domestic industry is all falling apart because the skilled trades are disintegrating. What we need are more tradesmen. We need more people in vocational school and fewer in college. There are thousands of college students right now who would be better off learning skilled trades and going into “hard” industry. American industry needs to be revitalized. The pursuit of alternative energy sources offers a wonderful opportunity to do so. When I said “education”, I was also including the trades. There’s no reason why we couldn’t have colleges devoted to mechanics, or electronics, or… whatever. Agreed, we DO need people to actually make the stuff- so let’s make the highest paying job a budding car mechanic can aspire to be that of an instructor. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/35 "2009-04-05T23:53:32Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > … And then give the other 90% to our educational system, please. Our country has this completely bass-ackwards: education should be our absolute, highest priority. Our best and brightest should aspire to be teachers, and we should reward them appropriately. The highest paying job in any field should be that of teacher- _because teachers make more workers in that field._ Get some competition in there, and we’ll start seeing the best teachers. Throwing hundreds of billions of dollars into the bottomless pit that is our Public Education system wouldn’t solve a damn thing, only effective reforms will. And with some good reforms…public education wouldn’t need anywhere near that much money. Healthcare isn’t the only system broken in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/36 "2009-04-06T01:36:49Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You might as well just drop a nuclear fucking bomb on America and save yourself all the work, because I can’t see the country continuing to exist under the conditions you’ve proposed. All I can say is, I’m damn glad that you’re not in charge of America. What **Mosier** proposes is no more than European-style social democracy. America could look like that and still be America. You do understand that, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/37 "2009-04-06T01:43:46Z")
> [@Monster104](#): > > Throwing hundreds of billions of dollars into the bottomless pit that is our Public Education system wouldn’t solve a damn thing, only effective reforms will. And with some good reforms…public education wouldn’t need anywhere near that much money. > > Healthcare isn’t the only system broken in the U.S. What reforms, exactly, are you looking for? And can you explain how giving teachers good wages won’t encourage good teachers? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/38 "2009-04-06T03:13:20Z")
This thread is why conservatives should be weary of labeling things they don’t like as “class warfare”. Do it too much and it dilutes the term. Then it doesn’t seem so bad. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/39 "2009-04-06T03:47:23Z")
I am with you, **Mosier**. However, absent a social movement, I don’t think anything will change. When a progressive tax rate is considered wealth redistribution or economic oppression of billionaires, and people earning less than $250,000 a year agree, thirty years of indoctrination has worked. Game over. Here is the economic reality. > [@](#): > > The richest 1 percent of Americans currently hold wealth worth $16.8 trillion, nearly $2 trillion more than the bottom 90 percent. A worker making $10 an hour would have to labor for more than 10,000 years to earn what one of the 400 richest Americans pocketed in 2005. [Link](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080630/cavanagh_collins) > [@](#): > > …the SCF reports that the top 5 percent of the population owns 85 percent of closely held business assets in the country, 79 percent of the publicly traded stocks and 70 percent of mutual funds. > > At the bottom of the scale, the story is far different. While many reports have claimed that about 50 percent of households own some stocks or shares in mutual funds (either directly or through IRAs or company pension plans), the actual amount held is quite small. According to the SCF, the bottom 50 percent own less than 1 percent of business assets, stocks and mutual funds–so much for President Bush’s claim that we need to reduce taxes on dividends and capital gains because we are an “ownership society” with so many Americans owning shares. The principal asset of the bottom 50 percent is the value of their homes, usually heavily mortgaged. Link ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044/40 "2009-04-06T03:50:09Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > What reforms, exactly, are you looking for? > > And can you explain how giving teachers good wages won’t encourage good teachers? It doesn’t work. Many countries (including my own) have doubled teachers’ salaries in a short period of time with little effect on education. Pay increases should be tied to effectivenss, tenure (or wahtever it’s called in schools) should not exist as an indefinite blank check; choice-choice-coice, increase the social status of teaching, make people WANT to be teachers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-ready-for-class-war-bring-on-the-socialism/492044.md?page=3)