# I'm sick of this Global Warming! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440 "2013-08-16T18:57:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 84
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1661 "2014-01-31T15:17:07Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The routine physics concept of carbon dioxide feedback _does_ violate this principle of thermodynamics. It just doesn’t transfer near enough of the total energy, about 26% is all. Cite? I would love to see a derivation of this. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1662 "2014-01-31T15:34:52Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > That statement wasn’t directed at **wolfpup** Well, it was a direct quote of and response to his words: > [@wolfpup](#): > > ([here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17031279&postcount=142)) > Water vapor is a feedback. Period. > > Of course water vapor is a GHG. No one disputes that. Just like no one in the legitimate scientific community disputes that it’s a feedback of rising temperatures. > [@watchwolf](#): > > ([here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17059951&postcount=1627)) > “Water vapor is a feedback. Period.” > > Water vapor is the gaseous phase of a compound, damn, did any of you take chemistry? Thermodynamic feedback mechanisms involve [gulp] thermodynamics. It’s sad that the “We’re fucked” Alarmists throw this around like it makes their point … it doesn’t … **the statement quoted above is just stupid.** Emphasis added. > [@watchwolf](#): > > Water is **THE** mechanic for atmospheric warming Do you mean “mechanism”? > [@watchwolf](#): > > My argument has always been that carbon dioxide is secondary at best as a mechanic accelerated by men-folk. This is based on the [ice core data](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok_Petit_data.svg) as it demonstrates a sharp increase in carbon dioxide at about 130,000 years ago, clearly when human-kind had NO contribution. We have to know why that happened, or anything we say about burning fossil fuel’s contribution is speculative. You realize, of course, that you just called your own “argument” speculative. If you claim (which I would dispute) that we can’t infer **anything** about CO2’s contribution to global warming until we fully understand the past half-million years’ glacial CO2 cycles illustrated by the figure in your link, then we can’t tell whether or not the CO2 contribution is “secondary at best”. > [@wolfwatch](#): > > The routine physics concept of carbon dioxide feedback _does_ violate this principle of thermodynamics. Do you mean “water vapor feedback”? Because that’s what we’ve been talking about here. > [@wolfwatch](#): > > It just doesn’t transfer near enough of the total energy, about 26% is all. If you want to focus on carbon dioxide, you still have to state where the other 74% of the total energy is … or you’re violating the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. An engineer posted a correction to my claims of violating the 2nd Law, opps, my bad. As near as I can figure, what you have now suddenly switched to talking about is the radiation absorption percentages or “percent of greenhouse effect” attributable to various greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, which is not the same thing as the phenomenon of water vapor feedback. What you are referring to by “an engineer posted a correction” is completely unclear. I honestly cannot make out whether you posted this drunk or whether you’re just basically oblivious to what you’re writing and the context in which you’re writing it. > [@wolfwatch](#): > > I wonder about your understanding of science in the general sense, how is questioning a scientific claim “anti-science”. **Questioning** a scientific claim is certainly not “anti-science”. Incoherently and ignorantly attacking the use or validity of well-established scientific concepts, on the other hand, definitely qualifies as “anti-science”. > [@wolfwatch](#): > > Water’s feedback mechanism is pervasive in ALL understanding of basic meteorology, and it is the very first thing taught to the student. Then it’s not clear why you were previously so freaked out (as per above quote) by **wolfpup** ’s incontrovertible and uncontroversial statement that “water vapor is a feedback” of rising temperatures. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1663 "2014-01-31T15:39:31Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Cite? I would love to see a derivation of this. [Here’s the citation for that 26% figure](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geo.utexas.edu%2Fcourses%2F387h%2FPAPERS%2Fkiehl.pdf&ei=A8PrUqbVBM3zoATRlIGYAw&usg=AFQjCNFZNLuIUJTXjUfvAgxExg-wDOvSbA&sig2=w4dPtQ2srT35ayZDddj5Wg&bvm=bv.60444564,d.cGU) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1664 "2014-01-31T15:46:16Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > [Here’s the citation for that 26% figure](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geo.utexas.edu%2Fcourses%2F387h%2FPAPERS%2Fkiehl.pdf&ei=A8PrUqbVBM3zoATRlIGYAw&usg=AFQjCNFZNLuIUJTXjUfvAgxExg-wDOvSbA&sig2=w4dPtQ2srT35ayZDddj5Wg&bvm=bv.60444564,d.cGU) You didn’t read a single word of that paper, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1665 "2014-01-31T15:47:50Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > [Here’s the citation for that 26% figure](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geo.utexas.edu%2Fcourses%2F387h%2FPAPERS%2Fkiehl.pdf&ei=A8PrUqbVBM3zoATRlIGYAw&usg=AFQjCNFZNLuIUJTXjUfvAgxExg-wDOvSbA&sig2=w4dPtQ2srT35ayZDddj5Wg&bvm=bv.60444564,d.cGU) **Happy Fun Ball** , in case you’re wondering, **watchwolf** appears to be referring to the statement on p. 206 of that link to the effect that “carbon dioxide contributes 26% to the clear sky radiative forcing”. And no, there is nothing about that phenomenon that violates any principle of thermodynamics, as **watchwolf** seems to be claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1666 "2014-01-31T16:03:59Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > **Gigo** Close, but no cigar … a Joule is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of one gram of air one degree Kelvin. What’s a degree Kelvin? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1667 "2014-01-31T17:18:29Z")
The delusional warmist actually thinks the only thing water vapor does is cause more warming, and that any increase in energy, from solar or greenhouse gas changes, will result in more water vapor, which they actually believe, with all their hearts, will make it warmer, by a feedback loop. This ignores basic Meteorology, and it is insane to think any climate expert actually goes along believing this is “the truth”. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1668 "2014-01-31T17:22:00Z")
A basic example that most people should understand is a hurricane. It involves a huge amount of water vapor, from the warm ocean surface, from both wind and low pressure. This massive heat engine moves heat from the warm sea surface to both cooler ocean regions, as well as land. Long distances, huge distances, massive amounts of water, and after it is over, do you think the ocean surface, the land, and the atmosphere is warmer? Do you actually think that the end result is more warming of the planet? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1669 "2014-01-31T17:22:19Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > What’s a degree Kelvin? That bit I got. He means the unit of temperature known as “one kelvin” or equivalently “one degree Celsius”: the Kelvin scale of temperature is the same as the Celsius scale except that its zero-point is different. Absolute zero or 0 kelvin equals -273.15 degrees Celsius. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1670 "2014-01-31T17:26:31Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > The delusional warmist actually thinks the only thing water vapor does is cause more warming Strawman. Nobody here, AFAICT, has claimed that the **only** thing water vapor does is cause more warming. On the contrary, see my [post #1631](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17060673&postcount=1631) above, where I explicitly pointed out that the feedback effect of water vapor serves to amplify atmospheric cooling as well as warming. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1671 "2014-01-31T18:44:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The anti-science meme of the moment seems to be to deny that water vapor is a feedback in atmospheric warming (and cooling too, for that matter: Not from what I see. The denial and pseudoscience is to claim water vapor is a feedback only, never a “forcing”, or a prime mover in climate. That myth is madness. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1672 "2014-01-31T18:46:30Z")
I gave a specific example of water vapor and heat, or energy, in action. > [@FXMastermind](#): > > Do you actually think that the end result is more warming of the planet? Don’t avoid the question. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1673 "2014-01-31T18:59:30Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > [Here’s the citation for that 26% figure](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geo.utexas.edu%2Fcourses%2F387h%2FPAPERS%2Fkiehl.pdf&ei=A8PrUqbVBM3zoATRlIGYAw&usg=AFQjCNFZNLuIUJTXjUfvAgxExg-wDOvSbA&sig2=w4dPtQ2srT35ayZDddj5Wg&bvm=bv.60444564,d.cGU) I don’t see where that backs up what you said. Can you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1674 "2014-01-31T20:22:55Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > I gave a specific example of water vapor and heat, or energy, in action. > > [QUOTE=FXMastermind] > > Do you actually think that the end result is more warming of the planet? Don’t avoid the question. [/QUOTE] Um, it would help if you specified whom your question is directed to. Neither of your posts concerning this question is explicitly responding to anybody but yourself. I presume that I’m not the one whose opinion you’re asking for, because I’ve already pointed out (twice so far) that water vapor feedback plays a role in atmospheric cooling as well as warming. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1675 "2014-02-01T00:43:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Um, it would help if you specified whom your question is directed to. Oh please. Now you are playing the pedant? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1676 "2014-02-01T01:44:03Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > This is based on the [ice core data](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok_Petit_data.svg) as it demonstrates a sharp increase in carbon dioxide at about 130,000 years ago, clearly when human-kind had NO contribution. We have to know why that happened, or anything we say about burning fossil fuel’s contribution is speculative. That is a rather impressive chart, especially since it goes back almost 450,000 years. You are correct about that sharp increase 130,000 years ago as well, and if you go back 320,000 years you’ll see that it reached the high point in that entire 450,000 year span, right around 300 ppm. What’s that? The ppm today? Oh yeah, 30% higher than any of the data points on that chart. Keep linking! ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1677 "2014-02-01T01:56:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > But when the Church of Global Warming engages in the same shenanigans, it seems perfectly fine to them. Until someone points it out and then they start getting angry. I don’t think it’s that simple, but some certainly act like that. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1678 "2014-02-01T02:28:50Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Oh please. Now you are playing the pedant? [Brought to you by the Partnership for a Pedantry-Free America](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfj3dPkeaqI) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1679 "2014-02-01T07:10:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Is there any evidence that there even **are** any (secret) paid shills for the fossil fuel industry? It seems very unlikely to me. As others mention, right-wing organizations do have paid shills posting comments on the Internet. However, the idea that FXMasturbater would be paid by denialists is absurd. (I do admit the likelihood that he is an unpaid troll _for the pro-science community_, trying to discredit denialists with his stupidity.) And I do want to thank Dopers for quoting people I have set to Ignore. I get the amusing highlights without the tedious crap. For example: > [@andros](#): > > [QUOTE=FXMastermind] > Fuck, I wish somebody would pay me to type out stupid shit. I could be a goddamn billionaire. Honest self-assessment is a beautiful thing. 😃 [/QUOTE] 😃 On the topics of stupidity and Dopers I see only when others quote them, **watchwolf49** would be a strong candidate for _best example of Dunning–Kruger effect_ except for one thing: some of his posts seem to admit that he knows how very limited his knowledge and understanding is. But why then does he persist in prattling his misunderstandings in such an insulting and pretentious manner? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440/1680 "2014-02-01T07:50:25Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > What’s a degree Kelvin? The more salient question would be “what is ‘air’?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440.md?page=83) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-sick-of-this-global-warming/666440.md?page=85)