# I'm so pissed off at our government, please tell me there is hope. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 11, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235 "2003-06-11T23:53:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/21 "2003-06-12T14:27:06Z")
You know, it’s threads like this that give me hope for this alleged democracy we live in. If more people in this country followed **Lissa’s** advice, maybe things would be a whole lot different. How DO we educate the vast majority of people who get NO news except for those “30-second snippets between commercial breaks” on what being a participating member of a democracy actually is??? Just always be willing to learn. And change. If you can do that, you’ll never give up the good fight. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/22 "2003-06-12T17:09:22Z")
Don’t know if anyone suggested it, but “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy” is a great book. As is “Stupid White Men” by Michael Moore. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/23 "2003-06-12T17:49:07Z")
It’s a little dated, but try Bob Harris’ “Steal This Book (And Get Lifetime Without Parole)” for laugh-out-loud skewering of American government missteps of the last forty years (up to around 1998, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/24 "2003-06-12T18:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > But the most absurd and preposterous of all, and which shewed, more completely than any other, the utter madness of the people, was one started by an unknown adventurer, entitled “A company for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is.” Were not the fact stated by scores of credible witnesses, it would be impossible to believe that any person could have been duped by such a project. The man of genius who essayed this bold and successful inroad upon public credulity, merely stated in his prospectus that the required capital was half a million, in five thousand shares of 100 pounds each, deposit 2 pounds per share. Each subscriber, paying his deposit, would be entitled to 100 pounds per annum per share. How this immense profit was to be obtained, he did not condescend to inform them at that time, but promised that in a month full particulars should be duly announced, and a call made for the remaining 98 pounds of the subscription. Next morning, at nine o’clock, this great man opened an office in Cornhill. Crowds of people beset his door, and when he shut up at three o’clock, he found that no less than one thousand shares had been subscribed for, and the deposits paid. He was thus, in five hours, the winner of 2,000 pounds. He was philosopher enough to be contented with his venture, and set off the same evening for the Continent. He was never heard of again. From _Extraordinary Popular Delusions_. The rest of the book is almost as good, which is saying something. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/25 "2003-06-12T19:07:45Z")
**fishcrawford** , I understand your transformation, and I think it will become even more common in the next few years, on both sides of the political fence. Our current political parties have little to nothing to do with their traditional stances and philosophies, and so switching from side to side to find the lesser of two evils is often the only way. One thing that I found enormously insightful is the [The Political Compass](http://www.politicalcompass.org/) which offers a short test which at the end tells you Left/Right and Authoritatrian/Libertarian axes of political philosophy, and suggests some excellent books for background on all of the various combinations. I found myself primarily in the center, slightly left and libertarian, which surprised me, as I had considered myself leaning more to the conservative side before taking the test. But, as one will learn, the American centrist-left would actually be considered somewhat right in other parts of the world. If anything, answering the test questions will get you thinking about where you actually stand on some issues, and self-examination is always a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/26 "2003-06-12T19:30:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GMRyujin \* > \*\*Don’t know if anyone suggested it, but “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy” is a great book. \*\* i’m reading that one right now, he makes some amazing claims. (the florida election guy running away on tape is awesome!). He does need more cites for many of his claims, though. I will check up on them after i finish reading it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/27 "2003-06-12T20:02:36Z")
If you’re interested in the US involvement in Central America, the best book would be _Inevitable Revolutions: the United States and Central America_ by Walter LeFeber. ---
**Author:** ![Rooster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@Rooster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rooster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/28 "2003-06-12T20:21:45Z")
This thread has had some excellent suggestions as per books etc. One that opened my eyes is “Voltaire’s Bastards” by John Ralston Saul. It deals with the total corruption, or bastardisation of the ideals of the Age of Enlightenment. These ideals, by the way, were the very ones upon which the USA was founded. Essential reading IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/29 "2003-06-12T21:58:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*If you’re interested in the US involvement in Central America, the best book would be _Inevitable Revolutions: the United States and Central America_ by Walter LeFeber. \*\* On a somewhat similar topic, I’ve heard “The Savage Wars of Peace” is quite good. ---
**Author:** ![fishcrawford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85f322/32.png) [@fishcrawford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishcrawford)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/30 "2003-06-12T22:20:47Z")
> [@](#): > > understand your transformation, and I think it will become even more common in the next few years, on both sides of the political fence. Our current political parties have little to nothing to do with their traditional stances and philosophies, and so switching from side to side to find the lesser of two evils is often the only way. One thing that I found enormously insightful is the The Political Compass which offers a short test which at the end tells you Left/Right and Authoritatrian/Libertarian axes of political philosophy, and suggests some excellent books for background on all of the various combinations. I found myself primarily in the center, slightly left and libertarian, which surprised me, as I had considered myself leaning more to the conservative side before taking the test. But, as one will learn, the American centrist-left would actually be considered somewhat right in other parts of the world. I just completed that quiz and I’m leftist/libertarian; I wouldn’t say it was unexpected, but kind of alarming since I’ve called myself a conservative for the last year. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/31 "2003-06-12T22:43:45Z")
Hmmm. A few months ago you were a brainwashed zombie follower of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. And now you’ve seen the light and become a brainwashed zombie follower of Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. I can’t wait to see what books you get your hands on next. For God’s sake, please nobody give this kid a copy of Dianetics. ---
**Author:** ![fishcrawford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85f322/32.png) [@fishcrawford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishcrawford)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/32 "2003-06-12T23:09:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmmm. A few months ago you were a brainwashed zombie follower of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. And now you’ve seen the light and become a brainwashed zombie follower of Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. I can’t wait to see what books you get your hands on next. For God’s sake, please nobody give this kid a copy of Dianetics. You are completely wrong about this; I never was a “brainwashed zombie follower” of Rush Limbaugh and especially not Ann Coulter. I was someone who considered themselves conservative and it turned out to be wrong. I’ve never read Howard Zinn, only read of him; and as for Noam Chomsky, I was merely puppeting what he had said for effect and to present the audience with the amount of frustration I feel at so many different versions of the truth. Your portrayal of me as a useful idiot swaying with the wind is innacurate. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/33 "2003-06-13T01:44:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Hmmm. A few months ago you were a brainwashed zombie follower of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. And now you’ve seen the light and become a brainwashed zombie follower of Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. I can’t wait to see what books you get your hands on next. For God’s sake, please nobody give this kid a copy of Dianetics. \*\* I think this is unfair. \*\* fishcrawford \*\* has had an “awakening,” if you will. S/he is being exposed to diametricly different viewpoints, some of which are shocking. S/he is expressing a desire to learn more about these viewpoints. In no way did I get the impression that \*\*fishcrawford \*\* is parroting blindly anyone’s viewpoint. Instead, s/he is searching for further information, which, in my opinion, is an extremely intelligent response to new ideas. And actually, I think \*\*fishcrawford \*\* \*should \* read \* Dianetics, \* otherwise, s/he will never be able to express an intelligent opinon on it. ---
**Author:** ![Sassy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@Sassy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sassy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/34 "2003-06-13T03:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*I think this is unfair. > > And actually, I think \*\*fishcrawford \*\* \*should \* read \* Dianetics, \* otherwise, s/he will never be able to express an intelligent opinon on it. \*\* Unfortunately, _Dianetics_ is unreadable. I tried, but I just could not do it! ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/35 "2003-06-13T06:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fishcrawford \* > \*\* I subscribe to National Review, \*\* Since you read NR, I have to ask: have you read _God and Man at Yale_? It’s the book that launched Buckley’s career. One of Buckley’s big points is that democracy is fundamentally flawed, and that all education- including that of Yale students- should be geared towards a small elite secretly deciding what people will think. Thus for Buckley, the ideal educational system would be one in which people are made to _think_ that they are thinking for themselves, but in reality the curriculum has been cunningly designed to lead them to a foreordained conclusion. (Specifically, economic conservatism, and Christianity.) Part of Buckley’s rationale is that he can’t actually use rational arguments to prove economic conservatism and Christianity to be correct. He concludes that reason itself is suspect- and thus that that’s all the more reason for an elite to do people’s thinking for them. IIRC, Irving Kristol wrote a paper in college arguing the same thing. Specifically, the said that since religion is the opiate of the masses, the small elite should be atheists, but should put on public displays of piety. He’s currently a big proponent of the “Intelligent Design” (in other words, stealth creationism) movement. (Unfortunately, I don’t have a cite for this, but I’d be very pleased if anyone else could provide me with one.) All this seems extra sinister given some recent revelations about Leo Strauss being the current popular thinker in Washington: ["Leo Strauss thought citizens needed rulers to tell them what’s good for them – and now he’s all the rage in Washington. Not surprising, somehow… "](http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/7752) Puts a bit of a sinister spin on Limbaugh’s lies, eh? If you’re interested in more from the liberal side of the spectrum, I suggest _The Great Limbaugh Con: And Other Right-Wing Assaults on Common Sense_ by Charles Kelly as a must-read. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/36 "2003-06-13T06:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*Russ Kick has has a few books which are collections of essays, \* You Are Being Lied To \* and \* Everything You Know is Wrong. \* There’s also a brand new one, but its name escapes me. (See [www.disinfo.com](http://www.disinfo.com) for more information.) Some of the essays I agree with . . . others I think are full of shit. However, they’re interesting books, and you can learn a lot from them. The web site actually has a lot of the essays posted online. You can get a good sampling based on subject. \*\* I would suggest that you be very, very careful in reading these. The editing is virtually nonexistent- Kick seems to have thrown in anyone who was willing to contribute, with no filtering for quality. Some of the articles draw shocking conclusions that are well-cited. (For example, there was an article in Serbian atrocities which tracked the NYT’s cycle of reporting an atrocity on page 1, running a buried retraction the next day, and so on, day after day. I’m still not sure what to make of that one…) Other articles just cite conspiracy mags, even when there’s no ostensible reason to do so. I remember an article on the OKC bombing which would make statements like, “According to the FBI’s report on the bombing…” But then the author wouldn’t cite the actual report- he would just cite a conspiracy rag. And the thing is, he did it time and again. He would cite nth-hand sources as quoting documents that he ostensibly could have gotten his hands on himself, but he didn’t bother. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/37 "2003-06-13T07:04:59Z")
\*\* Ben, \*\* I suggested the book as a good excersize in critical thinking. It’s very important to learn how to sort through the junk to find good information, especially if you’re a person who pays attention to the mainstream media. Some of the essays are good, some are bad. It’s in researching which is which you truly explore an issue. By no means should you ever take an author’s word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/38 "2003-06-13T07:07:47Z")
Incidentally, if you’re interested in libertarian economics, I’d suggest the following books: _Free to Choose_, by Milton Friedman, puts forth the arguments for laissez-faire. _Not So Free to Choose_ is a point-by-point rebuttal by Elton Rayack. (My own position is pretty obvious- I think _Free to Choose_ is crap, even though it’s the Bible of conservative economics. I actually saw a quote from FtC used as an example of dishonest rhetoric in a logic textbook once…) ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/39 "2003-06-13T13:22:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fishcrawford \* > \*\*I just completed that quiz and I’m leftist/libertarian; I wouldn’t say it was unexpected, but kind of alarming since I’ve called myself a conservative for the last year. \*\* Yeah, I sorta figured you would, as I agreed with a good deal of what you wrote in the OP. How that test translates in to how to vote is also a dilemma. I am no great fan of the Democratic party, and consider their shirking of their duties as an opposition party recently nearly criminal. However, those members of the GOP that are currently in power literally make my skin crawl and my gut clench. I would sorely love for a viable third party to arise, but I just don’t see it happening. And so, I go into '04 with the pathetic little cheer of “Anything but the GOP!”, wishing there was something to cheer positively for. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235/40 "2003-06-13T13:48:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fishcrawford \* > \*\*Two months ago at the start of this war I was a flag waving, republican backing, good ole’ college boy conservative; now, since this war has proved to be nothing more than a power grab, I’m fuckin pissed. I recently (after reading nothing but right-wing literature for more than a year) began to start reading some Noam Chompsky, Howard Zinn, and other political dissidents. I can’t decide if reading this literature has made me a more knowledgeable person, or a cynical, disenfranchised youth with a grudge against the system. But anyways…this thread is meant to be nothing more than a pitting of what is being passed off as a free country; feel free to add whatever you want. > > Do we have a representative democracy anymore?.. or is it something else disguised as a government “for the people, by the people.” The current political landscape, or the one since the 1930’s is, and has been, dominated by concessions to interest groups, backdoor foreign policy negotiations without voter support, and pork barrel politics that reward log rolling more than representing ones constituents. Poster boy, celebrity commentators who claim to be fair and balanced only report half the story while wrapping theselves in the psuedo-ideology of the “working class”, while backing foreign and social policies detrimental to those they claim to be looking out for. A more modern and worldy interpretation of “manifest destiny” seems to be the aim of current administration officials. The people who put the politicians in office have nearly no say in foreign policy that is dominated by under-the-radar dealings those in power have engaged in. It would almost be acceptable if this secretive style of government and world policing resulted in a safer and less destructive world, but the U.S. has turned much of Central and Latin American into dictatorships with support for brutal politicians. The exploitation of third world labor has helped make corporations more wealthy, but has hurt the moral authority of the US. The argument used by defenders of this kind of foreign policy is often, “we have done more good than harm.” Does this matter to those that are part of the trail of bodies left behind by death squads secretely sponsored by politicians that never have to answer to the public? I doubt it. Our government might be less confusing if political labels such as conservative or liberal actually meant what they are defined as. Conservatives who claim to support a small government pump billions into a costly and destructive war on drugs, with no end in sight and no intention of changing their current policies. Free thinking liberals in large numbers are subscribing to Orweillian restrictions on public and private speech, at the work place or otherwise. Maybe this wouldn’t be so bad either if our country was prospering and helping out other starving and struggling nations, but once again this isn’t the case. Our own economy is in the toilet, social security is nearing bankruptcy, and wars that are costing lives and assets are being waged based on shaky intelligence. Scandal after scandal points to government favor trading and enormous monetary mis-management. The bueauracracy our governmental model has created is eating itself alive, while politicians continue to dip their hands in OUR diminishing assets, all the while telling us we live in the greatest country in the world. And how nice it would be if the media with their swooping and unchecked political powers would ever give us the full story, instead of 30 second blurbs between commercial breaks. The 4th branch of government, the media, once considered the “watch dogs” of democracy, have turned into nothing more than the lap dogs of democracy, pandering to politicians and administration officials with soft-core reporting to get the favor of white house and congressional gate-keepers. > > There is more, but writing this by ear and on the fly has made me so frustrated and angry I don’t feel like going on. If anyone has something to add, go ahead. Also, if anyone has some links to good political reads or factual history not reported in textbooks, please supply them, thanks. \*\* Is there Hope? There will always be hope, but the best way you can change things is on a Tuesday in November. For once, Be Late For Work. Stop by the polling facility and Vote. Try to vote in the Primaries and school elections (if your state has them) too. All that has ever been necessary for evil to triumph is for good men and women to do Nothing (note record low turnouts last presidential election). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-so-pissed-off-at-our-government-please-tell-me-there-is-hope/181235.md?page=3)