# I'm starting to get the feeling that the conservative right is winning **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 2, 2021, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477 "2021-07-02T05:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/443 "2021-07-11T19:48:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > “Can I discriminate against \_\_\_\_\_\_?” The answer will always be “No”. So can Yale discriminate against Chinese immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/444 "2021-07-11T19:51:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The rule is: It is illegal to discriminate based on race/ethnicity. That’s not strictly true. It’s legal to discriminate for affirmative action. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/445 "2021-07-11T20:14:17Z")
I have read the entire thread and it’s almost impossible to figure out what position anybody is trying to defend at this point. But for what it’s worth, it’s not _more_ legal to discriminate for affirmative action than it is for any other reason. There’s legal discrimination and there’s illegal discrimination; affirmative action can be one or the other, just like all other kinds of activity. And Sam is right that “Asians” identifies a protected class, and those who are telling him it doesn’t are just using the terminology incorrectly. Race and ethnicity are protected characteristics, but a “protected class” is a group of people sharing one of those characteristics who have been affected by whatever activity is in question. Sam et al, as I described above, are not correct that some races, nationalities, etc. are protected and others aren’t. But he’s right that the idea of a “protected class” has its origin in US law in the idea that there are “discrete and insular minorities” who need protection. It is because of those groups that you aren’t allowed to discriminate based on protected characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/446 "2021-07-11T20:14:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > Except for Apartheid – everyone should hate the white people that oppressed South Africans during Apartheid. Are you saying it’s wrong to hate those who enacted and support Apartheid? > > I didn’t remotely say that. Of course it’s okay to hate a supporter of Apartheid. But is it okay to hate all white people in South Africa because Apartheid is a white power system? Should all white people in South Africa be hated because they benefited from Apartheid, even if they never agreed with it and just happened to live there? Would you say that those white people are racist unless they actively take part in dismantling the system? You did say “hating the white people that kept him oppressed with their Apartheid policies” – that’s not all white people, that’s the ones that oppressed with Apartheid. No, not all white people in South Africa should be hated. There, I said it! Is that shocking to you? Similarly, I don’t believe all white people in America should be hated. If you think this is an unusual statement from a progressive, then your understanding of progressive beliefs is as abysmal as Trump. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/447 "2021-07-11T20:16:39Z")
No, not even close. I’m saying that the white supremacy in America is a very complicated milieu of disgusting and sometimes even contradictory beliefs, and it can result in weirdness sometimes that may not even involve, in the immediate sense, any white people. And also, I don’t know specifically what caused particular hate crimes, and only with detailed research are we likely to have some idea (aside from the areas that have already been researched already, like lynchings and cross burnings). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/448 "2021-07-11T20:42:09Z")
The question I believe you were asked by @DemonTree was whether you believed that hate crimes committed against asians by black americans were rooted in white supremacy. Now, she phrased it as follows: > You don’t believe black hate crimes against Asians are rooted in white supremacy? Which may be what she meant, but I believe she simply phrased it in-artfully. I’m sure she’ll help us out and specify which she meant specifically. You responded: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m unaware of any grouping or phenomenon called “black hate crimes”. Many, and probably most, hate crimes in America are rooted in white supremacism, or related phenomena (which would include historical bigotry in America against Asian immigrants and Americans of Asian descent), regardless of the race of the perpetrator. I’m not sure if there has been any detailed research on the causes of any recent spasms of anti-Asian hate crimes. I asked for a clarification: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > It sounds like what you’re saying is: If we can identify a racially motivated crime that has also been committed by white people, it is therefore a white supremacy crime, even if it is committed by a black person. Put another way, a black person is unlikely to arrive at racial hatred of an asian person unless he was first exposed to such bigotry living in a racist white dominate culture. > > Is that a correct understanding of what you mean or do you mean something else? You responded: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, not even close. **I’m saying that the white supremacy in America** is a very complicated milieu of disgusting and sometimes even contradictory beliefs, and it **can result in weirdness sometimes that may not even involve, in the immediate sense, any white people.** And also, **I don’t know specifically what caused particular hate crimes, and only with detailed research are we likely to have some idea** (aside from the areas that have already been researched already, like lynchings and cross burnings). Which I will not assume is intentionally evasive but does not at all answer the initial question asked or my follow up question. It also seems to imply that while we have a pretty good understanding of what causes racial crime by whites, we need additional research to understand what causes hate crime by non-whites. Do you want to try again for clarity, or would you rather I just drop it because it seems to me like this is an uncomfortable conversation for you? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/449 "2021-07-11T20:47:36Z")
Something I’m curious about. You talk about bigots a lot, and I’m guessing you follow the party line on redefining racism as prejudice + power. So would you mind answering: Is a black person expressing prejudice against whites racist? Is that person a bigot, are they welcome in your no-longer-so-big tent? Does it depend on what exactly they say/believe? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/450 "2021-07-11T20:58:32Z")
I don’t have a specific answer to your question (except “no, that’s not what I said”), because I don’t have all the answers. I answered it as best I could. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/451 "2021-07-11T20:59:10Z")
I’m curious for your answers to my earlier questions, but you didn’t answer most of them, so I suppose my curiosity will go unsated. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/452 "2021-07-11T20:59:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t have a specific answer to your question (except “no, that’s not what I said”), because I don’t have all the answers. I answered it as best I could. Understood. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/453 "2021-07-12T09:17:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who said it was incurable? Cite, please, and be specific. Moss did. Quoting from the Newsweek article, Moss wrote that the psychological treatment of Whiteness “is no guarantee against regression” and “[t]here is not yet a permanent cure.” > **[Medical Journal Article Describes Whiteness as 'Parasitic-Like Condition'](https://www.newsweek.com/research-article-medical-journal-describes-whiteness-malignant-parasitic-like-condition-1599129)** > > The article's author, Dr. Donald Moss, said whiteness establishes "entitled dominion" that enables the "host" to have "power without limit, force without restriction, violence without mercy," and increases one's drive to "terrorize." ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/454 "2021-07-12T09:21:50Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > But for what it’s worth, it’s not _more_ legal to discriminate for affirmative action than it is for any other reason. There’s legal discrimination and there’s illegal discrimination; affirmative action can be one or the other, just like all other kinds of activity. Okay, fair enough. Can you explain what kinds of discrimination are legal, or is there a handy summary somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/455 "2021-07-12T09:32:32Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Moss did. Quoting from the Newsweek article, Moss wrote that the psychological treatment of Whiteness “is no guarantee against regression” and “[t]here is not yet a permanent cure.” It’s right there in the abstract I quoted in this thread. One paragraph long. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/456 "2021-07-12T09:39:21Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > “is no guarantee against regression” and “[t]here is not yet a permanent cure.” Well, that alone is good enough to dismiss that paper IMHO, if there is a chance to get better (implied with the “no guarantee against regression”) that bit about not being a permanent cure is not a thing I would put on a medical publication. Of course, just in case a point is missed here, no paper is the final word in a field, nor it is a way to reach a consensus, it is really just a more sophisticated nutpick. An ongoing dismissal of a paper actually means that one undermines the usefulness of it by the right wing media or “social” media that pointed at that paper in an effort to dismiss other fields. Also: it is not good evidence for one to think that in a specific field that all ponder the same way. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/457 "2021-07-12T10:04:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, that alone is good enough to dismiss that paper IMHO, if there is a chance to get better (implied with the “no guarantee against regression”) that bit about not being a permanent cure is not a thing I would put on a medical publication. I think you’re taking this guy’s rantings a bit too seriously. 😆 My point in posting it was to show the gaping double standard in what is acceptable to say. Claim white people are particularly susceptible to a ‘malignant, parasitic-like condition’ that is also named after them - get published in a peer reviewed journal, and defended by progressives who don’t see a problem(!) Oppose affirmative action in a published paper - author removed from directorship, and paper withdrawn by journal. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/458 "2021-07-12T10:04:43Z")
That is different than incurable. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/459 "2021-07-12T10:18:26Z")
If you want to have a philosophical discussion over whether a non-permanent treatment can be considered a cure, it might be better to start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/460 "2021-07-12T10:18:35Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > It’s also a convenient way for the Right-wing to change the subject, because there are those within their own camp who are very often correctly tagged as racists and antisemites. They need to change the subject from their own racists and recent racist past. So, they try and make the issue about “wokism”, because they’re uncomfortable with their association with actual racists, including the 45th president or people who tried to overturn an election on his behalf. It’s a way to cope with their own racist - and very recent - history. Do any of the three articles you cited have anything to do with wokism or “woke” people. Neither of the words appear in any of the articles. Politically, being ant-woke is about being anti-left. It’s a rejection of leftist principals and jargon, especially the most ridiculous of it. It’s general sentiment is anti-pretentiousness. As for being racist, I’d say that someone is more likely to be made fun of for being woke if they’re white than if they’re black or some other colour. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/461 "2021-07-12T10:20:21Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > My point in posting it was to show the gaping double standard in what is acceptable to say. Well, my point still stands, is that the paper (as I pointed to you before in another thread about another publication that many on the right wanted to be a consensus too when it was not) does not represent what everyone in that field (and that is more into a medical one than a sociology one) thinks about that issue. It remains a more sophisticated nutpick. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477/462 "2021-07-12T10:27:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, my point still stands, is that the paper (as I pointed to you before in another thread about another publication that many on the right wanted to be a consensus too when it was not) does not represent what everyone in that field (and that is more into a medical one than a sociology one) thinks about that issue. > > It remains a more sophisticated nutpick. I didn’t say it was a consensus - in fact I was surprised that posters here defended something so obviously offensive and inflammatory. Again, the point is that it is considered acceptable to publish, not that it is the majority view. If you are going to keep posting to deny things that no one believes or has claimed, there is no point responding any more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-starting-to-get-the-feeling-that-the-conservative-right-is-winning/945477.md?page=24)