# I'm throwing down the gauntlet: Poison vs. Venom **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972 "2012-06-03T21:56:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/61 "2012-06-05T00:20:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Being a pedantic prescriptivist dillhole, I can’t be anywhere but in Team Venom. Words have a meaning, proper nomenclature is important, vagueness of terms and people using “their definition which is just as good as anyone’s because nobody owns words” breed confusion and misunderstanding, make communication more difficult one ambiguity at a time, yadda yadda. The first definition of “venomous” in the [Merriam-Webster Medical dictionary](http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/venomous) is “poisonous”. Similarly for [their main dictionary](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venomous). That’s a legitimate cite, from a well-known publisher, not just “anyone”. Does your prescriptivist dillhole attitude also extend to prescribing which dictionaries are acceptable for everyone else as well? Tell you what, I’ll believe “poisonous” can’t also include “venomous” when you get the editors of that dictionary to remove those definitions,. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/62 "2012-06-05T00:28:21Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > To me, a rattlesnake is not poisonous. I’ve eaten rattlesnake. So has my grandpa. We didn’t get poisoned. This is sort of a com positional fallacy, though - you didn’t get poisoned _because you didn’t eat the poisonous bit._ If you’d eaten the head or the area just back of it, you’d have had a bad time. That’s a bit like saying that fugu isn’t a poisonous fish, because lots of people it eat it. It’s still poisonous, we just have the good sense not to eat the poisonous bits. Rattlesnakes are venomous and (naturally) poisonous. Fugu are poisonous, but (naturally) not venomous. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/63 "2012-06-05T00:37:57Z")
I’m a zoo educator, and I make the distinction between poisonous and venomous every time I teach about snakes. I don’t make a big deal about it, but if some kid asks me “Is it poisonous?” my answer is usually along the lines of, “Do you mean venomous? No, ball pythons aren’t venomous, and I would never bring any dangerous animal to your school.” It’s part of my job to introduce kids to zoological vocabulary, why wouldn’t I use the most correct term? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/64 "2012-06-05T01:04:54Z")
Yeah, despite running a poll of 100 random people on the internet, until someone can give a good argument showing that one of the most established and respected dictionaries in the English speaking world is wrong in its definition of poisonous I’m not sure why we should even accept this bullshit argument about common usage. Dictionaries **are documentary evidence of common usage** , and of a massively more powerful sort than a few random people on a message board. You people who keep talking about being able to eat a rattlesnake as proof that rattlesnakes are not poisonous are also being ridiculous. As **Larry Mudd** points out, if you ate the poison glands it probably wouldn’t be ideal. There’s a reason you typically cut about four inches from the base of the snake’s skull when removing the head to cook the rest of the body. Eating a whole rattlesnake like a opossum does would be bad for humans, opossums can do it because they have a natural immunity/tolerance for the venom. So in fact unless you’re being **highly specific** it isn’t correct to say “a rattlesnake isn’t poisonous because I can eat one with no ill effect.” Their poison glands definitely contain poison, and eating them would allow their poison to be absorbed into your bloodstream. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/65 "2012-06-05T01:09:50Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > It’s part of my job to introduce kids to zoological vocabulary, why wouldn’t I use the most correct term? This is entirely reasonable, IMO. Many (most? all?) fields have their own jargon, and use words with much more specificity than they are used in common speaking. But this doesn’t make the common usage wrong for everyone else. We aren’t all experts in every field. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/66 "2012-06-05T01:16:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Eating a whole rattlesnake like a opossum does would be bad for humans, opossums can do it because they have a natural immunity/tolerance for the venom. So in fact unless you’re being **highly specific** it isn’t correct to say “a rattlesnake isn’t poisonous because I can eat one with no ill effect.” Their poison glands definitely contain poison, and eating them would allow their poison to be absorbed into your bloodstream. Actually after looking into it this isn’t true. Apparently snake venom can’t be absorbed in most normal situations through ingesting it. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/67 "2012-06-05T01:18:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Their poison glands definitely contain poison, and eating them would allow their poison to be absorbed into your bloodstream. … And thus, at that point it would fit the definition of poison: toxic substance that’s ingested or inhaled. As I’ve maintained all along, the delivery method defines what it should be called and not the inherent toxicity. QED. ETA: Just saw your post where you corrected yourself - so it’s not poisonous then, but if the above quote _were_ true, it would be (but only when you eat it). It’s completely possible for an animal to be both poisonous and venomous, and still have the terms mean different things. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/68 "2012-06-05T01:19:56Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > … And thus, at that point it would fit the definition of poison: toxic substance that’s ingested or inhaled. As I’ve maintained all along, the delivery method defines what it should be called and not the inherent toxicity (which means that poison and venom are mutually exclusive, since you can’t have it injected into you and eat it at the same time). QED. Here’s the only definition of poison I care about: a : a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism If you don’t believe snake venom fits that definition **regardless of how it is delivered** , then I don’t know that there is much hope for you. Come back when have proof Merriam-Webster is wrong on the definition of the word. It’ll probably be difficult since dictionaries are sort of the “proof” for word definitions, though. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/69 "2012-06-05T01:40:18Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > … And thus, at that point it would fit the definition of poison: toxic substance that’s ingested or inhaled. As I’ve maintained all along, the delivery method defines what it should be called and not the inherent toxicity. I’m curious, how do you refer to [poison darts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_poison) under this schema? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/70 "2012-06-05T01:44:23Z")
To clarify further, here are the possible combinations: - It forcibly injects the (toxic substance) into its prey, but if you eat the (toxic substance), it causes no ill effect - _such as with a rattlesnake_, by your own admission. **Venomous, but not poisonous**. - It forcibly injects the (toxic substance) into its prey, and if you eat the (toxic substance), it also causes a toxic reaction. **Venomous _and_ poisonous** (still with each word meaning something different). - It does not inject the (toxic substance), but if you eat it, you will experience a toxic reaction. **Poisonous, but not venomous**. Here’s [another cite](http://ufwildlife.ifas.ufl.edu/venomous_snake_faqs.shtml) from the Department of Wildlife Ecology & Conservation @ University of Florida: > [@UF](#): > > Poisons are substances that are toxic (cause harm) if swallowed or inhaled. Venoms are generally not toxic if swallowed, and must be injected under the skin (by snakes, spiders, etc.) into the tissues that are normally protected by skin in order to be toxic. Here’s [another cite](http://cals.arizona.edu/main/spotlight/venomous-poisonous-animals-arizona-quick-reference) from the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences @ University of Arizona: > [@UA](#): > > First, a quick note about the difference between “venomous” and “poisonous”. Venom is injected via a bite or sting. Poisons are ingested or absorbed. Therefore snakes, bees, scorpions, spiders, etc. are venomous, and toads, mushrooms, and household chemicals are poisonous. Remember, venom = active, poison = passive. Here’s [another cite](http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/biowarfare_02) from Understanding Evolution @ UC Berkeley (created by the University of California Museum of Paleontology): > [@UCB](#): > > What’s the difference between a poison and a venom? Need a hint? Monarch butterflies are poisonous and coral snakes are venomous — and either could make you pretty sick. If the toxin is actively injected, as by a snake bite or a bee sting, it is called a venom. But if the toxin is absorbed through the skin, inhaled, or eaten (as by the monarch’s predators), it is called a poison. Here’s [another cite](http://www.azgfd.gov/i_e/ee/resources/posters/rattlesnake/snake_8.shtml) from the Arizona Game & Fish Department of Wildlife: > [@State of Arizona](#): > > Although they are often lumped together in the same category, there is actually a difference between poison and venom. It is actually incorrect to refer to a rattlesnake as poisonous. Here’s [another cite](http://www.nps.gov/brca/naturescience/gbrattlesnake.htm) from the National Park Service, an institution of the federal government: > [@](#): > > Rattlesnakes are often referred to as poisonous snakes. This description is incorrect as the meat from a rattlesnake is not only edible, it is also considered very tasty, having a flavor similar to (yep, you guessed it!) chicken. Rattlesnakes are venomous. The difference is in the definitions of the two words. Poisonous means unsafe to eat. Venomous means having the potential to inject poison into you. It’s an important distinction as humans do far more “biting” of rattlesnakes than they do of us. You. Are. Wrong. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/71 "2012-06-05T02:09:15Z")
The word poison comes from the same root that we get the words ‘potion’ and ‘potable’ - it means something toxic that you eat or drink. Venom on the other hand comes from the same root that we get the words ‘wound’ and ‘wen’ - something toxic introduced via an injury (in this case injected). That was all quite a few years ago though, and language evolves. One could be ‘poisoned’ through the skin, by breathing something in the air, as noted upthread by a ‘poison dart’, etc. and those uses of poison are perfectly correct today. It would be technically correct, although not common, to call arsenic a ‘venomous’ substance. And it is technically correct to call rattlesnakes ‘poisonous’ in modern English in most contexts. The difference is still important in certain contexts - “Hey Tex, is is OK to fry up that rattlesnake and eat it, or is it poisonous?” “Nah he’s venomous, but not poisonous.” But in the context of the thread that spawned this debate there is no practical difference between the words and they can be used interchangeably. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/72 "2012-06-05T02:12:26Z")
@ **Rigamarole** : I’m behind you all the way on your crusade, but trying to get some people to use the terms correctly is like trying to get many folks to understand the difference between “to lay” and “to lie”.\* Best of luck. \*This board needs a “banging-one’s-head-against-a-wall” emoticon. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/73 "2012-06-05T02:16:19Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > (I was originally going to post this in GD, but that forum doesn’t allow polls and I wanted to have one) > > So in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=653926), someone asks about “poisonous snakes”, and in the name of pedantry, [I gently remind them](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15127455&postcount=13) of the difference between poison and venom. Then **Blake** [comes along](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15127496&postcount=14) and attempts to refute my argument by claiming that poison and venom essentially have the same meaning and are interchangeable terms. [Colibri agrees](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15128248&postcount=35). [I provide two cites](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15127971&postcount=30) which clearly state that venom is directly injected while poison is inhaled or ingested, backing up my original claim. But of course these go ignored. > > So what say ye? Are you Team Poison or Team Venom? You argue with two of our boards greatest Biologists about a question in their specialization? :eek: They are scientists, you are not. Perhaps linguistically you have a point, but scientifically you are wrong. This is like a High school English teacher correcting Einstein about “nuclear”. It’s true that the words have a slightly different meaning, but scientifically speaking the difference is not significant. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/74 "2012-06-05T02:20:15Z")
> [@Toucanna](#): > > @ **Rigamarole** : I’m behind you all the way on your crusade, but trying to get some people to use the terms correctly is like trying to get many folks to understand the difference between “to lay” and “to lie”.\* Best of luck. > \*This board needs a “banging-one’s-head-against-a-wall” emoticon. I don’t really expect to get everyone using it correctly, but **Blake** , **Martin Hyde** , and **Colibri** have been rather rude in the way they’ve presented their (unsupported, contrarian) opinions and I mainly just wanted to show them how very wrong they are. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/75 "2012-06-05T02:22:13Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > The difference is still important in certain contexts - “Hey Tex, is is OK to fry up that rattlesnake and eat it, or is it poisonous?” “Nah he’s venomous, but not poisonous.” But in the context of the thread that spawned this debate there is no practical difference between the words and they can be used interchangeably. Sure, in the context of that thread it was clear that he _meant_ to say venomous where he said poisonous, but used the wrong term unwittingly. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter in other contexts, as you point out, so why not at least mention it? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/76 "2012-06-05T02:31:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Perhaps linguistically you have a point, but scientifically you are wrong. > > … > > It’s true that the words have a slightly different meaning, but scientifically speaking the difference is not significant. Tell me something - do you think most people who would casually ask questions about poisonous/venomous animals are using the terms in a narrow and strictly scientific context, or are they using them in a broader linguistic context? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/77 "2012-06-05T02:36:44Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Sure, in the context of that thread it was clear that he _meant_ to say venomous where he said poisonous, but used the wrong term unwittingly. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter in other contexts, as you point out, so why not at least mention it? For the record I have no problem with you mentioning it. I was just expounding on the valid points of both sides of the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/78 "2012-06-05T02:41:52Z")
By the way, I also found a cite from a peer-reviewed, scientific journal. > [@Isbister](#): > > An important distinction between envenoming and > poisoning is pertinent to marine poisoning. Venomous animals have a specialised gland > that produces venom, and the venom is applied or injected parenterally… (quote is from the Google Scholar description and cuts off there because you have to pay for the full article but feel free to purchase it if you want, it costs $31.50 :p) Ref. : Dr Geoffrey K Isbister, MD, Matthew C Kiernan, FRACP. The Lancet Neurology. _Neurotoxic marine poisoning_. Volume 4, Issue 4, April 2005, Pages 219–228. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/79 "2012-06-05T03:02:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You argue with two of our boards greatest Biologists about a question in their specialization? :eek: > > They are scientists, you are not. Perhaps linguistically you have a point, but scientifically you are wrong. It isn’t actually a scientific question. It is a linguistic question. I don’t think they were answering as ‘scientists’ but rather as users of the English language. In fact, the more “scientific” you want to be about it, the more important the distinction in the meaning becomes. Conversationally in a casual thread about snakebite danger there is really no difference. In a study to determine the toxicity of snake venom when injected versus eaten, it is extremely important to have a means of differentiating between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972/80 "2012-06-05T03:15:09Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I’m curious, how do you refer to [poison darts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_poison) under this schema? I think, if we were going to get properly persnickety, we’d class those as “envenomed” also. Unless you can find some way to trick the anaconda into eating the dart… FWIW, Shakespeare knew the difference. Queen Gertrude was poisoned, but the sword that slew Hamlet was “envenom’d.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-throwing-down-the-gauntlet-poison-vs-venom/623972.md?page=5)