# I'm tired of Socialized Fire Fighting! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373 "2009-08-14T02:25:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/81 "2009-08-14T22:59:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Explanation, please? Yeah I wasn’t very clear. Aside from a very small few guys, most conservative/-free-marketers accpet the role of the state in providing some basic services. The “don’t use my taxes” line, therefore, doesn’t apply here. Not even as exageration. But, on review, I failed in my counter-irony. > [@tagos](#): > > Allow me to translate. > > ‘I got nuthin’’ Don’t quote yourself, dude > [@SmashTheState](#): > > See, as an organizer with the Panhandlers’ Union, I run into this a lot. People who have never lived in poverty don’t realize just how _desperately_ poor it’s possible to be in North America. Plenty of people in both Kanada and Amerika live in what most would consider Third World conditions, without access to sufficient food, safe shelter, sufficient and suitable clothing for the climate, or even, in some cases, basic sanitation and running water. You may be surprised to know that several major medical journals including the Lancet and JAMA have been reporting the [rise of rickets](http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/159/4/335.pdf) in poor neighbourhoods in the US, a disease of chronic malnutrition not seen in North America since the worst days of the sweatshops of the Industrial Revolution. > > _You_ may have enough food to live, but I can assure you that millions in North America do _not_, and that without food banks and soup kitchens, there would be death and starvation all around us. The only reason they aren’t pulling thousands of corpses a week out of the inner cities is because of “socialist” food distribution of the sort Rand Rover would love to see eliminated. Havent’ been to a third world country, have you? because we aren’t pulling thousands of corpses and the solutions tend to be community organized “comedores populares” (soup kitchens) . ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/82 "2009-08-14T23:18:07Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Hi, Smashie. I’ve spent the previous five years working in AIDS treatment on MLK Boulevard in the Bronx, and the last four working in drug treatment in Queens. And this is supposed to convince me that your pollyanna view of Officer Friendly should override 20 years of my own experience as an activist? I think the part which annoys me the most around SD is the pervasive Rand-like belief that there is only one really real truly true Truth and that anyone who holds a divergent view is stupid, insane, or trolling. Since you have so much experience talking to poor people, perhaps you’ve noticed that I’m not the only one who sees that the police belong to the rich? > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You want to guess which of us has done more work to help the downtrodden, the helpless, those who need more than Society has said they will give? > > Which of us has had more bomb threats? > > Which of us has made the world a better place for all? > > Wanna lay your balls on the line, Smashie? I got a hammer. Sorry, which one of us is the one swinging his dick around and warning people to watch for the sonic booms? > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Cops are cops. They ain’t evil, and they’re here to help everyone. Do they? Depends on the cop. But both the darkest and brightest sides exist there. Police are class enemies. You lack a class analysis. This does not make me insane. > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Unless, of course, you’re a yapping chihuahua who gets in the way of them doing their jobs. Not a threat, just a nuisance. Then you’re gonna see the worst side of all of them. Organizing copwatch to prevent police from routinely breaking the law makes me a “yapping chihuahua”? You really need to give your head a shake. > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You want to smash the state, kid? This “kid” is 40 years old. And, just incidentally, you can fold your snooty, condescending, superior attitude into a paper crane and firmly deposit it where it feels best, “dad.” ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/83 "2009-08-14T23:36:31Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > See, as an organizer with the Panhandlers’ Union, I run into this a lot. People who have never lived in poverty don’t realize just how _desperately_ poor it’s possible to be in North America. Plenty of people in both Kanada and Amerika live in what most would consider Third World conditions, without access to sufficient food, safe shelter, sufficient and suitable clothing for the climate, or even, in some cases, basic sanitation and running water. Statements like this show how out of touch with reality you are. The US and Canada have nothing approaching Third World conditions. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/84 "2009-08-14T23:39:53Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Statements like this show how out of touch with reality you are. The US and Canada have nothing approaching Third World conditions. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/85 "2009-08-14T23:59:06Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I think the part which annoys me the most around SD is the pervasive Rand-like belief that there is only one really real truly true Truth and that anyone who holds a divergent view is stupid, insane, or trolling. Well, there _is_ a positive correlation between holding “divergent” views, and being stupid, insane, or trolling. Notably most of the later have the former too. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/86 "2009-08-15T00:01:43Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Cite? You mean “kite”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/87 "2009-08-15T00:02:38Z")
Divergent? Arguing a Republican viewpoint is divergent. Arguing an anarchist viewpoint is way out in left field. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/88 "2009-08-15T00:22:41Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Divergent? Arguing a Republican viewpoint is divergent. Arguing an anarchist viewpoint is way out in left field. 😃 I saw what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/89 "2009-08-15T01:06:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Because they are not remotely the same thing. > > First, you sort of moved passed the fact that the US absolutely meddles in agricultural policy a LOT. Subsidies in 2004 were over $8 billion. > > Second, food is not the same as health care. You could grow your own food. There are many other sources too which include soup kitchens to dumpster diving. Catch a pigeon if you have to. You can also decide to eat steak or hamburger. Lobster or fish sticks. > > You cannot, however, provide for your own healthcare. In many cases you need healthcare immediately or die. No real choice. The care required is what it is. No price shopping. No “fix only one collapsed lung please, the second lung is a luxury I am willing to forgo just now.” > > Third, there is no food “insurance” you use to eat. Food is pretty inexpensive relatively. Yet one broken leg may cost you thousands of dollars for an ER visit. Get cancer? Hundreds of thousands to treat it. Drugs alone for some cancers run $9000/month or more. > > Comparing these things is apples and oranges. There are things that are of a small enough scale that one can pay for them oneself, and other things that can only be sorted out if we all kick in and buy them. Food and clothing are small scale items and amenable to individual decisions. Highways, armies and fire departments are things that we can organize as a group decision- that is, using the government to do things for ourselves. Health care would seem to fall in the second category for me, but I’m fortunate enough to live in British Kolumbia. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/90 "2009-08-15T02:24:47Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Cite? Here’s your cite: [KidChameleon lives here](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg/599px-The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg). A place you clearly do not. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/91 "2009-08-15T03:19:17Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Yeah I wasn’t very clear. > Aside from a very small few guys, most conservative/-free-marketers accpet the role of the state in providing some basic services. > The “don’t use my taxes” line, therefore, doesn’t apply here. Not even as exageration. > But, on review, I failed in my counter-irony. **What** makes it different? **Why** are military, fire fighters, and police ok (along with public power, water, and mail delivery) but socialized healthcare causes American Conservatives to go frothing at the mouth with rage? I’m specifying “American Conservative” because conservatives in all the other developed countries accept it as a standard practice, and the notion of abolishing it is reserved to a tiny lunatic fringe, probably on par with those in favor of abolishing women’s suffrage. It’s just not even contemplated on a mainstream level in other places. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/92 "2009-08-15T03:24:14Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It’s funnier when some yutz buys an over-the-top lampoon as an honest-to-god proposal. I like it. To hell with Nanny Government. It’s socialism at its worst. It’s gubmint interference. How DARE they take money from me, to fight someone else’s fire 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/93 "2009-08-15T03:26:25Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > How does the death panel fit into all of this? Does this means there’s a team of Super Villains who decide whose houses burn down? Oh crap, the secret is out. Secret supervillain meeting at my mysterious headquarters in the volcano tonight! Dammit. Now they know about my volcano secret base too. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/94 "2009-08-15T03:49:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > They should make these things completely out of asbestos! I’ve a far better idea. Igloos. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/95 "2009-08-15T03:49:50Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’m specifying “American Conservative” because conservatives in all the other developed countries accept it as a standard practice… Yeah. Germany’s UHC was established by that liberal commie Otto von Bismarck (and is replicated in countries such as France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland). Britain’s UHC was kicked into gear by that most liberal pansy Winston Churchill. How do they feel about it today? [The [Tory] Party supports the NHS 100%.](http://toryreformgroup.wordpress.com/) Fuckin liberal commie/socialist/fascist/tree-hugging/whale-wanking/spotted owl loving bastards! ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/96 "2009-08-15T03:52:16Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > My HARD EARNED tax dollars are being STOLEN from me and are going to put out other peoples fires and I’m TIRED of it!\* Exactly!. Me too. Most home fires are caused by 2 things: careless cigarette smokers and candles. If your chain smoking wife won’t put down her drug habit or you cannot understand that having an open flame/candle in the house is a bad idea, then no, I don’t want to have to subsidize your poor choices. Let your family, friends and community figure out how to help you. Quit stealing my money to do it. And that is how I feel about having to pay for your health care. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/97 "2009-08-15T03:55:12Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > Exactly!. Me too. Most home fires are caused by 2 things: careless cigarette smokers and candles. > > If your chain smoking wife won’t put down her drug habit or you cannot understand that having an open flame/candle in the house is a bad idea, then no, I don’t want to have to subsidize your poor choices. Let your family, friends and community figure out how to help you. Quit stealing my money to do it. > > And that is how I feel about having to pay for your health care. And when your neighbor’s chain smoking wife starts a fire and it spreads to your house then what? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/98 "2009-08-15T03:57:18Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Smash - other way around. The rich can afford private police and gated communities. It is the poor who benefit from having a public police force. Well why should someone else subsidize this? Let them either hire their own police or go without. They are broke and live in a bad neighborhood, due to the choices they made sometime, somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/99 "2009-08-15T03:59:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And when your neighbor’s chain smoking wife starts a fire and it spreads to your house then what? My problem, I’ll handle it. Because I believe in individual responsibility. The government is not there to provide all things for for me. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/100 "2009-08-15T04:03:14Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Smash - other way around. The rich can afford private police and gated communities. It is the poor who benefit from having a public police force. Ack…can’t believe I missed this till I saw the response above. Are you fucking kidding me? Ever been to a concert? How about July 4 fireworks? Imagine those things in a big city with no police force. More, imagine a society where you are fine in your gated community but leave it and it is the Wild West. Have fun going to work or shopping. The rich absolutely benefit from a peaceful society. It encourages more economic development and people buying stuff and so on that make rich people rich. Don’t believe me? Go live in Somalia awhile and see how private-only security works and makes for a peachy society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373.md?page=6)