# I'm tired of Socialized Fire Fighting! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373 "2009-08-14T02:25:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/141 "2009-08-16T00:13:47Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Now, why do we accept that markets work well for food but assume they break down for health care? Psst. Nixon trashed the family farmers in the name of cheap food a generation ago. We really don’t rely on the free market for food production in this country. > [@](#): > > President Obama has skillfully portrayed opponents of his plan as supporters of the status quo. I do not support things as they are - frankly the level of government intervention of health care as it exists now is unsustainable, and insurance is unnecessarily complex, probably overcovers too many people and is pinned to employment and is not portable. I agree. I support full-on socialized insurance because it is maximally portable. Hard to beat that. More personal security for the working man means more personal liberty to strike out on one’s own & be one’s own boss. And the experience of the 1950’s shows us that very high marginal tax rates don’t really hurt the economy the way the tax protestors want us to think. > [@](#): > > In addition, I should note that truly free market areas of medicine (those that don’t deal with government or insurance reimbursement at all) are the best at lowering costs. Remember this the next time you hear a Lasik commercial - this procedure was once unavailable, then expensive, and now is cheap. This has everything to do with it being a new technology. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/142 "2009-08-16T00:13:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Or how the tools are lusted after. True, but that would be a defect in the person. I could say, do you own your money or does your money own you. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/143 "2009-08-16T00:21:07Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Well why should someone else subsidize this? Let them either hire their own police or go without. They are broke and live in a bad neighborhood, due to the choices they made sometime, somewhere. In previous lives? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/144 "2009-08-16T00:22:59Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > In previous lives? It must be that whole Karma … reincarnation … ummm … thing ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/145 "2009-08-16T00:27:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yes, we get that there are poor and homeless people in the US and Canada. But your “reality” is the exception, not the rule. So far. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/146 "2009-08-16T00:30:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > IOW, every dollar given to a starving kid on the street is a dollar not going to some entrepreneur who was creating an invention that could have improved the lives of a thousand people. And possibly a hundred million people if the Objectivists could just get past that, “never give anything away,” bias. > [@](#): > > Or in even simpler terms, business and wealth and profit are not “evil”. Of course not. It’s thinking they are the one necessary good & therefore must be unrestrained that is…foolish, & can cause evil. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/147 "2009-08-16T00:43:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Objectivists don’t allow sentimentality, wishful thinking, religeon, mysticism or voo doo to influence their decisions. Charity given to the poor based on “need” is wasted money that could have been used to engage in productive business transactions. True in se, but it could be misleading. While Objectivism discourages altruism, it encourages philanthropy. The difference, as Rand painted it, is that altruism is the deflation of one’s self or one’s property (wealth) with no self-interest in mind, while philanthropy brings about the growth of society as a whole. It is viewed as a waste of money, versus an investment (in future economic growth, through education, work training, or what-have-you). This is how Harry Binswanger explained it to me. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/148 "2009-08-16T00:48:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Or a squirrel eats through your wiring. Or a derecho rips off your lightning rod shortly before a thunderhead hits & lightning strikes & sets your roof on fire. “Derecho” – had never heard the term before. Now, between you and Google, I’ve learned something new today. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/149 "2009-08-16T00:50:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > True in se, but it could be misleading. While Objectivism discourages altruism, it encourages philanthropy. The difference, as Rand painted it, is that altruism is the deflation of one’s self or one’s property (wealth) with no self-interest in mind, while philanthropy brings about the growth of society as a whole. It is viewed as a waste of money, versus an investment (in future economic growth, through education, work training, or what-have-you). This is how Harry Binswanger explained it to me. Giving money to a bum so he can drink himself to death faster = bad. Giving money to someone who is just on hard times = good. Aside from the oversimplification, is that the gist of it? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/150 "2009-08-16T00:59:05Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Giving money to a bum so he can drink himself to death faster = bad. > Giving money to someone who is just on hard times = good. > > Aside from the oversimplification, is that the gist of it? Yes. In fact, in her book, _Atlas Shrugged_, there is a scene where an old man — a bum — encountered Dagney Taggert (the protagonist). She sensed in him that he was simply a man who was capable but down on his luck. They had some conversation over dinner, and the ways he comported himself, his demeanor, etc., were all clues to her that all he needed was a hand up. So she hired him on the spot (he had had railroad experience), let him use her facilities to clean himself up, and then announced to the workers that he was their new boss. And then, to top it all off, she reasoned that a man must have some wealth to have the confidence necessary to do the job she assigned to him, so she gave him a crisp one-hundred dollar bill (at that time, quite a stash). And then she got back on the train and rode away. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/151 "2009-08-16T01:16:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yes. > > In fact, in her book, _Atlas Shrugged_, there is a scene where an old man — a bum — encountered Dagney Taggert (the protagonist). She sensed in him that he was simply a man who was capable but down on his luck. They had some conversation over dinner, and the ways he comported himself, his demeanor, etc., were all clues to her that all he needed was a hand up. > > So she hired him on the spot (he had had railroad experience), let him use her facilities to clean himself up, and then announced to the workers that he was their new boss. And then, to top it all off, she reasoned that a man must have some wealth to have the confidence necessary to do the job she assigned to him, so she gave him a crisp one-hundred dollar bill (at that time, quite a stash). And then she got back on the train and rode away. And in the sequel, he starts the Panhandler’s Union. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/152 "2009-08-16T01:20:09Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > And in the sequel, he starts the Panhandler’s Union. 😃 He doubtless became EnemyOfTheState, or whatever it is. ETA: Sorry. That’s apparently SmashTheState. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/153 "2009-08-16T01:21:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > True poverty is almost non-existent in North America. In the U.S., the more poor you are, the fatter you are. There was an excellent [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334771&highlight=poverty+obesity) a few years back which discussed this irony. Summary: Fattening “junk” food is substantially cheaper than lean meat, fresh fruits and vegetables. If you’re extremely poor it’s a matter of survival that the highest calorie per dollar food is the one that gets eaten. Being fat does NOT mean that you’re getting proper nourishment. > [@](#): > > And I always get a chuckle when I see street beggars with cell phones. LOL. Crafter\_Man, you ignorant slut! Cell phones are actually quite cheap these days, especially the prepaid ones. And if you’re a homeless beggar and do want to get a job, it’s essential that you have a way for a potential employer to contact you. Foregoing a cell phone isn’t going to help them get off the street and would actually be counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/154 "2009-08-16T01:48:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What is “actual” life experience to which you are privy and the rest of us are not? Maybe **Smashy** is a wise Latina. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/155 "2009-08-16T02:06:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It seems pretty straighforward to me. If I build a company that employs a thousand people and makes me a multi-millionare, I don’t owe anything to anyone other than my investors if I have any. I should not be penalized if my inginutiy allows me to provide a superior product that drives my competition out of business. My employees, vendors and customers have entered into financial transactions with me out of their own free will and no one should tell me what I have to pay them or how much to sell my products for. My benefit to society is the products I produced and the jobs I provided to my employees and the vendors who do business with me. How many enterprising Americans have been unable to take their idea for a superior product and start a company that employs a thousand people simply because they cannot take the first step of quitting their existing job because they cannot afford to lose all their health care benefits? My BIL quit his job to start his own company, and lost his employer-provided health insurance, but, since he is Canadian, this meant he now had to pay the full cost of his eyeglasses and upgrade from shared to private hospital room, not that he and his family can no longer afford to get sick or be injured. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/156 "2009-08-16T02:36:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And what about that army? It’s not like we’ve really needed them, have we? I mean, WWII was the last time we were _really_ in any danger. Yeah, no danger to NYC or Washington, or Pennsylvania, on 9/11, right? How soon we forget…:mad: ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/157 "2009-08-16T03:14:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > True in se, but it could be misleading. While Objectivism discourages altruism, it encourages philanthropy. The difference, as Rand painted it, is that altruism is the deflation of one’s self or one’s property (wealth) with no self-interest in mind, while philanthropy brings about the growth of society as a whole. It is viewed as a waste of money, versus an investment (in future economic growth, through education, work training, or what-have-you). This is how Harry Binswanger explained it to me. To expand on \*\*Liberal’s \*\*example from Atlas Shrugged, an Objectivist example of philanthropy would be a corporation giving scholarships to particularly entrepreneurial or industrious kids from disadvantaged neighborhoods. > [@Bookkeeper](#): > > How many enterprising Americans have been unable to take their idea for a superior product and start a company that employs a thousand people simply because they cannot take the first step of quitting their existing job because they cannot afford to lose all their health care benefits? My BIL quit his job to start his own company, and lost his employer-provided health insurance, but, since he is Canadian, this meant he now had to pay the full cost of his eyeglasses and upgrade from shared to private hospital room, not that he and his family can no longer afford to get sick or be injured. Those are really just excuses, aren’t they? Quitting your job and starting a new company is always a risk. Some people live with the risk. Others wait until they have saved up enough to live off of for a year or so (including health care costs) or they work on their idea in their spare time. Anyhow, Objectivists would probably be pretty disappointed by our modern health care system. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > So far. Most experts seem to think the economy has leveled off and is starting to improve. Unemployment rates always tends to be a trailing indicator of economic conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/158 "2009-08-16T03:16:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > To expand on \*\*Liberal’s \*\*example from Atlas Shrugged, an Objectivist example of philanthropy would be a corporation giving scholarships to particularly entrepreneurial or industrious kids from disadvantaged neighborhoods. Yes, that is indeed a good example. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/159 "2009-08-16T03:25:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Those are really just excuses, aren’t they? Quitting your job and starting a new company is always a risk. Some people live with the risk. Others wait until they have saved up enough to live off of for a year or so (including health care costs) or they work on their idea in their spare time. If my wife and I quit our jobs to start a company there is no way in the world we could afford health care for ourselves, let alone our kids. She and I, and the kids, have pre-existing conditions, so if we let our insurance coverage lapse we’d be considered uninsurable in the current US framework. Even if an insurance company would talk to us the premiums would be astronomical. How are we supposed to afford health insurance at the same time we’re scratching up capital? Taking a risk is one thing, setting on a course where we could count the days to either a bankruptcy from medical bills or a death in the family is quite another thing indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/160 "2009-08-16T03:31:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Yes, that is indeed a good example. Honestly, how much would corporations give to charity if they didn’t get much more back in free publicity and tax deductions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373.md?page=9)