# I'm tired of Socialized Fire Fighting! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373 "2009-08-14T02:25:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/161 "2009-08-16T03:32:28Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > If my wife and I quit our jobs to start a company there is no way in the world we could afford health care for ourselves, let alone our kids. She and I, and the kids, have pre-existing conditions, so if we let our insurance coverage lapse we’d be considered uninsurable in the current US framework. Even if an insurance company would talk to us the premiums would be astronomical. How are we supposed to afford health insurance at the same time we’re scratching up capital? > > Taking a risk is one thing, setting on a course where we could count the days to either a bankruptcy from medical bills or a death in the family is quite another thing indeed. Well, then starting a new company might not be for you. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/162 "2009-08-16T03:36:26Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Yeah, no danger to NYC or Washington, or Pennsylvania, on 9/11, right? > > How soon we forget…:mad: _Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooosssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh_ ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/163 "2009-08-16T03:38:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well, then starting a new company might not be for you. Yes, for several reasons. But the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs is out there somewhere, and what if the one thing keeping her from inventing the next paradigm shifting thing was that she had to keep her current job so her family had health insurance? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/164 "2009-08-16T04:04:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Out of curiousity, what is it about Objectivism you are unable to wrap your brain around? > > It seems pretty straighforward to me. If I build a company that employs a thousand people and makes me a multi-millionare, I don’t owe anything to anyone other than my investors if I have any. I should not be penalized if my inginutiy allows me to provide a superior product that drives my competition out of business. My employees, vendors and customers have entered into financial transactions with me out of their own free will and no one should tell me what I have to pay them or how much to sell my products for. My benefit to society is the products I produced and the jobs I provided to my employees and the vendors who do business with me. > > Objectivists don’t allow sentimentality, wishful thinking, religeon, mysticism or voo doo to influence their decisions. Charity given to the poor based on “need” is wasted money that could have been used to engage in productive business transactions. Protectionism and industry subsidies are wastful because it props up unsuccessfull and unsustainable businesses at the expense of businesses that could have used that capital to provide the goods and services people actually wanted with it. > > IOW, every dollar given to a starving kid on the street is a dollar not going to some entrepreneur who was creating an invention that could have improved the lives of a thousand people. > > Or in even simpler terms, business and wealth and profit are not “evil”. The flip side is the social contract (I think). You live in a society. You have a responsibility to that society. Some have more means than others. Those with more means are a beneficiary of that society that lets them achieve whatever. Having them pay back into that society is right and proper. The whole, “every dollar given to a starving kid on the street is a dollar not going to some entrepreneur who was creating an invention that could have improved the lives of a thousand people” is bullshit. We have tried trickle down economics and it has proven itself a colossal failure. On the flip side, this country prospered spectacularly in the 50’s when tax rates were ginormous for the rich. It has been shown that the economy flourishes more under Democratic leadership than it does under Republican leadership. More, while the Dems take more from the rich the rich still actually prosper more overall under the Dems. More poor people can buy their shit. Look at Somalia and tell me the best solution is lack of government, the rich survive and poor get what’s coming to them. Is a Darwinian economic model the society we want? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/165 "2009-08-16T04:06:24Z")
Don’t blame Darwin. Natural selection is not survival of the fittest, or the strongest; it is survival of the most adaptable. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/166 "2009-08-16T04:10:00Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > There was an excellent [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334771&highlight=poverty+obesity) a few years back which discussed this irony. Summary: Fattening “junk” food is substantially cheaper than lean meat, fresh fruits and vegetables. If you’re extremely poor it’s a matter of survival that the highest calorie per dollar food is the one that gets eaten. Being fat does NOT mean that you’re getting proper nourishment. That’s a politically-correct explanation. The truth is that poor people simply like to eat fattening food. Take a poor person. Educate them on nutrition. And then present them a bucket of fried chicken and a bucket of steamed broccoli and carrots. Trust me, they will choose the former. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/167 "2009-08-16T04:26:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The flip side is the social contract (I think). > > You live in a society. You have a responsibility to that society. Some have more means than others. Those with more means are a beneficiary of that society that lets them achieve whatever. Having them pay back into that society is right and proper. > > The whole, “every dollar given to a starving kid on the street is a dollar not going to some entrepreneur who was creating an invention that could have improved the lives of a thousand people” is bullshit. We have tried trickle down economics and it has proven itself a colossal failure. On the flip side, this country prospered spectacularly in the 50’s when tax rates were ginormous for the rich. It has been shown that the economy flourishes more under Democratic leadership than it does under Republican leadership. More, while the Dems take more from the rich the rich still actually prosper more overall under the Dems. More poor people can buy their shit. > > Look at Somalia and tell me the best solution is lack of government, the rich survive and poor get what’s coming to them. Is a Darwinian economic model the society we want? The rich contribute to society just fine and still would even under a flat tax system…i.e., Joe Blow making $50,000 a year at 8% flat tax pays $4,000. Robert Gottrocks making $5,000,000 a year at 8% flat tax pays $400,000 dollars and contributes ten times as much to the economy as does Joe Blow. Take away government-designed tax loopholes and institute a flat tax and the rich will ipso-facto pay their fair share (as anyone without a vested interest in greedily grabbing even more of their money for their own use can readily see). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/168 "2009-08-16T04:37:25Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > That’s a politically-correct explanation. The truth is that poor people simply like to eat fattening food. > > Take a poor person. Educate them on nutrition. And then present them a bucket of fried chicken and a bucket of steamed broccoli and carrots. Trust me, they will choose the former. :rolleyes: This has got to be one of the stupidest things I’ve heard from you. (And I’ve heard quite a bit). I know quite a lot of rich people who eat fattening food as well. Trust me, I know plenty who’d choose the chicken over the veggies. MHO: [sub]I hate fried chicken[/sub] > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Take away government-designed tax loopholes and institute a flat tax and the rich will ipso-facto pay their fair share (as anyone without a vested interest in greedily grabbing even more of their money for their own use can readily see). [Cecil on the flat tax](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1118/do-the-rich-pay-very-little-tax): > [@](#): > > the “flat tax” proposal, the stupidest idea to come down the pike since pet rocks. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/169 "2009-08-16T04:42:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > :rolleyes: > > This has got to be one of the stupidest things I’ve heard from you. (And I’ve heard quite a bit). > > I know quite a lot of rich people who eat fattening food as well. Trust me, I know plenty who’d choose the chicken over the veggies. > > MHO: [sub]I hate fried chicken[/sub] > > [Cecil on the flat tax](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1118/do-the-rich-pay-very-little-tax): The fattening stuff often tastes a whole lot better. AND often it IS cheaper. Damn right I’d prefer the fried chicken. To me, salads are just something to keep busy until the real food arives, and veggies are just a side dish. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/170 "2009-08-16T04:48:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I know quite a lot of rich people who eat fattening food as well. Trust me, I know plenty who’d choose the chicken over the veggies. Then we are in agreement. Some people think the reason people eat shitty food is because they are ignorant on the subject of nutrition. This is false. I have counseled quite a few people on how to lose weight, and I have had a 0% success rate - they go back to eating shit in a week or two. They _ **know** _ what is healthy to eat, and what is not, yet they choose to eat junk. Same goes for smokers… they _know_ cigarettes cause cancer, yet they smoke anyway. And the notion that poor people are fat because they supposedly can’t afford healthy food is BS. It assumes they would be eating healthy food if they only had a few more bucks in their pocket. Your (true) assertion that there are wealthy people who eat crappy food proves this out. In light of this, perhaps you’ll agree my original statement was not stupid. Politically incorrect, to be certain, but not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/171 "2009-08-16T04:50:41Z")
That wasn’t my point. I was saying – it has nothing to do with being _poor_. Although I guess I’m weird, because I’d prefer the salads. And I like veggies. But I like junk food too. So I guess because I’m middle-class, that’s why I like both healthy AND junk? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/172 "2009-08-16T04:58:31Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Damn right I’d prefer the fried chicken. Most people would. According to the politically correct, poor people would eat healthy food if they only could afford it. So many times I have been in line behind extremely obese people at the supermarket who pay for their groceries using food stamps. Their carts are full of the fattiest crap you can imagine. I ask myself, “Why don’t they buy healthy stuff?” The painful truth is that it has nothing to do with money, and nothing to do with ignorance. Fat people span the entire socioeconomic spectrum. They are fat because they have a habit of eating too much, and they eat the wrong kinds of food. You can educating them until you’re blue in the face, and 95% won’t change their ways. You can double the amount of food stamps a recipient gets, and I \*guarantee \*they won’t magically start eating healthy foods. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/173 "2009-08-16T05:02:40Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > So many times I have been in line behind extremely obese people at the supermarket who pay for their groceries using food stamps. Their carts are full of the fattiest crap you can imagine. I ask myself, “Why don’t they buy healthy stuff?” Have you ever come up with any explanation? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/174 "2009-08-16T05:08:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Hey, feudalism was better than what we’re likely to get these days. The serfs had rights from being bound to the land. Too much of the modern right buys into Hayek’s utopian anti-conservative optimism, where all change is good so long as no one in authority planned it. > > We need a smackdown between Burkeans & Hayekeans, but they’re both too scared of the Gay Buddhist Taxman (or some other bogeyman) to honestly have it out. My Bi-curious Baha’i Building code inspector kick the shit out of your taxman…that’s how I avoid the bogeyman. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/175 "2009-08-16T05:08:45Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > And I always get a chuckle when I see street beggars with cell phones. LOL. It is a bit of a surprise when you first encounter it, I agree. But, to me, it makes a lot of sense. Cell phones seem like a luxury but that is sort of 1990’s thinking. The world (vis-a-vis communications) has changed so fast–not only in terms of the technology and the economies of it (things have gotten way cheap)–but also the social implications. In 199x it most people still used land-lines as their primary 2-way connection to the world. Cell phones were seen back then as a bit of a luxury. Over time, with prices coming down quickly and the realization of the importance of 24-hour communication availability (it _is arguable how much_ importance, depending on whether you are talking about say, a journalist or some idle, chattering tweener), cell phones became the primary way to make phone calls (AFAIK). If you mean homeless people when you say “street beggars” then consider that these folks don’t have the option of using a cheaper landline (pay phones aren’t generally cheaper and they are not a good way to receive calls). And consider how crucial voice communication over distance is to human beings. Then consider how cheap cell phones have become (notably pay-as-you-go phones) and it is really not at all surprising or inappropriate that “street beggars” use them. Sometimes a common reaction to a homeless person is, “Why don’t you just get a job?” How are potential employers going to contact them about a job application they have filled out? Carrier pigeon? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/176 "2009-08-16T05:09:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > That wasn’t my point. I was saying – it has nothing to do with being _poor_. Not true. Historically there has been a correlation between income and obesity rates. The affluent have had the lowest rate, and the poor have had the highest rate. (Though it should be mentioned that the gap is shrinking.) Why the correlation? Depends who you ask. There are the predicable PC explanations (which are wrong). The truth is that there’s a third cause. In other words, the condition that causes people to become poor also has a tendency to causes people to become obese. Generally speaking, chronically poor people are lazy and repeatedly make poor choices. That’s why they’re poor. If you are lazy and repeatedly make poor choices, being obese is probably in your future, too. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/177 "2009-08-16T05:10:29Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Most people would. > > According to the politically correct, poor people would eat healthy food if they only could afford it. So many times I have been in line behind extremely obese people at the supermarket who pay for their groceries using food stamps. Their carts are full of the fattiest crap you can imagine. I ask myself, “Why don’t they buy healthy stuff?” > > The painful truth is that it has nothing to do with money, and nothing to do with ignorance. Fat people span the entire socioeconomic spectrum. They are fat because they have a habit of eating too much, and they eat the wrong kinds of food. You can educating them until you’re blue in the face, and 95% won’t change their ways. You can double the amount of food stamps a recipient gets, and I \*guarantee \*they won’t magically start eating healthy foods. I’m at the opposite spectrum. I can eat like a starving animal, all sorts of fatty, greasy, starchy crap, and I can’t gain an ounce. I’ve gone to “all you can eat” places, and had people staring at me. I imagine, a part of what they do, is they eat the food that is familiar and tastes right to them. And then, there is that “leftover” from childhood. The stuff you had to eat, was usually that icky healthy stuff you didn’t like. To this day, I HATE asparagus for example. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/178 "2009-08-16T05:10:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Have you ever come up with any explanation? Yes. They like the taste of fat-laden food. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/179 "2009-08-16T05:15:45Z")
Missed the edit window. I see **Blaron** made the same point I did in post #153. Except he/she did it MUCH more succinctly!! ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373/180 "2009-08-16T05:19:19Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m at the opposite spectrum. I can eat like a starving animal, all sorts of fatty, greasy, starchy crap, and I can’t gain an ounce. Damn I’ve envious. I have a very slow metabolism, and I have to watch every ounce I consume. I eschew all fried foods, and I can’t eat foods I love (e.g. ice cream). It’s a constant, daily struggle. But I’m 41, and I don’t want to be the stereotypical “short, bald, fat guy.” I can’t do anything about being short and bald, but I \*can \*do something about the fat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-tired-of-socialized-fire-fighting/506373.md?page=10)