# I'm too crushed for words (re: Angel) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 14, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139 "2004-02-14T01:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/41 "2004-02-16T20:34:04Z")
[WB Pres Levin responds](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1944&ncid=1990&e=4&u=/variety/20040216/va_ne_al/wb_decides_it_s_time_for __angel__ to_fly) > [@](#): > > Levin also said the rapidly changing economics of network television played a big role in the decision to end “Angel.” Skein doesn’t repeat well, and Levin anticipates having to double run one or more dramas in primetime next season — as well as add more reality programs to the Frog’s mix. > > “We have a lot of veteran shows that are aging, and we’re going to have to make room for new programs,” Levin said. “I know this will make lots of fans unhappy. But we have to have more at-bats, and we need to create timeslots where we can repeat shows (the same week episodes premiere.)” > > “This isn’t about the WB bailing out on one of its top shows,” Levin added. “The show had a loyal core following, but it didn’t have a tremendous amount of new audience upside.” Thanks for fucking over the loyal viewers, Levin. I’ll be making it a point to never watch the WB again. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/42 "2004-02-16T21:00:56Z")
Wow. What a way to announce that your industry is in a tailspin, and you _know_ it, but you still don’t have a clue how to get your audience back. The mega mergers have not paid off in shareholder gains anywhere close to what they were supposed to do. The so-called essential audience (people aged 18-34) have vanished, and TV execs throughout the entire industry don’t know what to do, because they can’t assimilate the new paradigm that’s been created within the past decade. Read the rest of the article about Jordan Levin that **pepperlandgirl** posted. The WB is planning to imitate what ABC does with America’s Next Top Model and _air the exact same show on multiple nights_ next TV season. Levin and people like him have decided that the tiny audiences generated by their shows cannot afford to pay for what used to be mainstream programming ie programs with an ongoing story, so they’re using the same tactic used by the movie people: go for the biggest audience you can get on a single three-day stretch, and then drop it. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/43 "2004-02-17T18:50:12Z")
[Here is a great page with information on how you can help save Angel…](http://buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3258) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/44 "2004-02-17T19:37:26Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Wow. What a way to announce that your industry is in a tailspin, and you _know_ it, but you still don’t have a clue how to get your audience back. > > The mega mergers have not paid off in shareholder gains anywhere close to what they were supposed to do. The so-called essential audience (people aged 18-34) have vanished, and TV execs throughout the entire industry don’t know what to do, because they can’t assimilate the new paradigm that’s been created within the past decade. > > Read the rest of the article about Jordan Levin that **pepperlandgirl** posted. The WB is planning to imitate what ABC does with America’s Next Top Model and _air the exact same show on multiple nights_ next TV season. Levin and people like him have decided that the tiny audiences generated by their shows cannot afford to pay for what used to be mainstream programming ie programs with an ongoing story, so they’re using the same tactic used by the movie people: go for the biggest audience you can get on a single three-day stretch, and then drop it. To buttress your point, [here is a quote](http://money.cnn.com/2004/02/11/news/companies/comcast_disney/index.htm?cnn=yes) from a [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) article about the Comcast/Disney merger: > [@](#): > > Burke\* also said he was confident that Comcast could operate Disney’s ABC network on a break-even basis. Levin is following a losing strategy. The ABC division of Disney has constantly had its financial ass handed to them, and even Comcast admits that the best they could hope to do is run it at a break-even level. The WB is history. It doesn’t know it yet, but it is. \*Burke is the President of Comcast cable. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/45 "2004-02-17T21:03:13Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > No more buffyverse. Now maybe you know how Firefly fans feel. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/46 "2004-02-17T22:03:23Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Now maybe you know how Firefly fans feel. Well, yeah. Sorta. I loved _Firefly_, and was very happy to get the DVDs so that I could see all of the episodes–in order this time. (And, for a handful of them, for the first time ever.) The greatest tragedy with _Firefly_ was that, IMO, its potential hadn’t really been reached just yet. But it was getting there–and quickly, too. But the Buffyverse? I’ve been following Mutant Enemy’s vamp antics since 1997 and, quite honestly, the end of _Buffy_ made it seem like I said good-bye to a long-time friend. And now that _Angel_ is being staked, it kinda makes me feel as if I just received a letter saying that the same friend just died. _Firefly_ was great (as I said, I loved it), but it wasn’t around long enough to really mean anything to me as the Buffyverse has over seven years. The Buffyverse’s potential was reached, and then added on to nearly every season with nearly every episode of both _Buffy_ and _Angel_. I had fun in the '80s as a kid watching television, and I definitely enjoyed the cartoons and campy sit-coms back then. But I didn’t ever really appreciate television (or understand that it could be appreciated) until _Buffy_ came along. (I was out in L.A. when I first saw the posters and billboards advertising the show. “What the hell,” I thought. “Paul Reuben’s death in the movie was pretty damn funny, so I’ll give it a try and groan once it really doesn’t translate to televsion.” I didn’t know that I’d get sucked in for 7 years. Nor did my wife know that, on the way back from our wedding in Vegas last year, that she’d wake up from her nap on the plane, see Willow crying on my laptop’s screen in a Season 4 episode, ask to listen in for a while, and then get attached, too. She’s now caught up to the end of Season 5 of _Buffy_ and Season 3 of _Angel_.) As Tom Robbins wrote in _Still Life with Woodpecker_ (paraphrased): “There are two mantras in life: yum and yuck.” Yuck. All that said, I hope Mutant Enemy gets another show. And soon. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/47 "2004-02-17T22:18:18Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Now maybe you know how Firefly fans feel. Well, I already knew, as I am a Firefly fan and my husband is well…rather rabid in his devotion. So trust me, this is the third in a hat-trick of grief and pain and spirit crushing defeat. Which is why I’m not just going to shrug and say “Well that’s the way these things go…” Those fuckers are going to hear from me and maybe it won’t do any good, but 20 postcards and 20 emails later, I’m feeling much, much better. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/48 "2004-02-17T23:32:15Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#): > > Yup, but… they also just hit the “magic number” – 100 episodes. Syndication, rah, rah. Now WB can run it 5 days a week and still profit from it without investing in the costs of creating _new_ episodes. OTOH, it’s already in syndication on TNT, every day. I watched the whole first three seasons last year. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/49 "2004-02-18T00:05:48Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Well, I already knew, as I am a Firefly fan and my husband is well…rather rabid in his devotion. My bad then. I thought you were one of the Buffy devotees who refused to watch Firefly out of spite. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/50 "2004-02-18T00:24:30Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > My bad then. I thought you were one of the Buffy devotees who refused to watch Firefly out of spite. Not me, but I am familiar with the type of person of who you speak. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/51 "2004-02-18T13:08:43Z")
I don’t understand why a _Buffy_ fan would have refused to watch _Firefly_ out of “spite.” Could someone explain, please? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/52 "2004-02-18T18:23:37Z")
Because they blame Firefly for what happened in S6. If Joss hadn’t been wrapped up in Firefly, he never would have left Marti in charge, and there wouldn’t have been the crack/black magic Willow storyline, the “bad boyfriend” storyline, the attempted rape, etc, etc. I disagree with the assessment because despite the execution, Joss was in still in charge over what stories were being told. But the bitterness in some circles runs very, very deep. Even now. And then when Firefly actually aired we were starting S7, which wasn’t as disappointing to some as S6, but not what they were expecting/hoping for either. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/53 "2004-02-18T21:09:23Z")
From [TVGuide.com](http://TVGuide.com) > [@](#): > > HIGH STAKES: Angel fans may be deeply divided as to whether or not a certain slayer should play a part in the show’s series finale in May, but exec producer Joss Whedon isn’t: He wants Sarah Michelle Gellar back. “We’ll put out some feelers [again] to see if there’s some interest there,” he told TV Guide Online last night. “We’d certainly love to have her.” But Gellar nixed an earlier offer to guest-star on Angel this season and Whedon says he isn’t “banking” on her changing her mind. Still, we had to ask: If the Chosen One were to reappear in the Buffyverse, which of her undead loves would she be returning for — Spike or Angel? “You think I’m going to tell you that? I’m not going to tell you that,” Whedon says. “If she were to come back it would be to answer that question.” > > MORE HIGH STAKES: In other Angel news, rumors that the axed WB drama could follow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer’s footsteps and put down stakes at rival network UPN are just that — rumors. “We’ve talked about the possibility,” Whedon says, “but it’s a long shot.” A UPN spokeswoman had no comment, but an Angel insider confirms that execs at Twentieth Century Fox (Angel’s producer) are putting together a proposal for UPN. [http://www.tvguide.com/news/entertainment/](http://www.tvguide.com/news/entertainment/) ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/54 "2004-02-19T16:51:19Z")
My Bad. America’s Next Top Model is on UPN, not ABC (eh, they’re one channel away from each other in my nabe). Still, it’s a big big sign of what we can expect from the future of TV. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/55 "2004-02-21T17:28:07Z")
So, the WB couldn’t, like, cancel _Smallville_ and put a show that’s, like, actually good in that time slot? No, they actually had to cancel the only watchable hour of television outside of PBS. I wonder if the predictions that another network wouldn’t think the show is worth picking up are correct. _Angel_ is a critically acclaimed show with a strong core audience. I’m thinking that if ways could be found to shoot the show on a lower budget than it has now (fewer set pieces, move the FG into some low-rent digs appropriate for their fall from grace after the W&H fiasco, etc.), Sci-Fi or maybe UPN might pick it up. Also, I don’t think it would be disastrous for UPN to pick up the show. I’m one of those who thinks that a big part of the reason S6 of _BtVS_ went so badly awry was that Marti Noxon was using the show as a forum to work through her personal issues. Sure, Joss was technically in charge, but I don’t think he was keeping as close an eye on the show as he should have. If David Fury or one of the Drews had been left in charge, I think the show would have been a lot more fun. S7 I think suffered from a lack of direction due to the fact that it was still up in the air as to whether SMG was going to re-up. Once it was made clear that the show was done for, it pulled back together for a strong finish. ---
**Author:** ![AngelicGemma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@AngelicGemma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelicGemma)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/56 "2004-02-21T17:38:15Z")
No more sexy Angel! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/57 "2004-02-21T23:43:33Z")
I haven’t seen this in any of the recent Angel threads, but it either pisses me off or makes me laugh I can’t decide. I was wandering through my Tivo as I’m often wont to do when I found this thing called TV Rules- Angel. It’s a little segment about the hundredth show, starts with Ken Taylor who I think is from TV Guide calling Angel- “the successful spinoff from Buffy the Vampire Slayer” waah. Then we have lots of people hugging, a couple of interviews, but the other one that got to me was Alexis Denisof- “I don’t feel a hundred. I think we could make a hundred more.” :: sobs into hankerchief:: -Lil ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/58 "2004-02-22T00:48:28Z")
> [@percypercy](#): > > but the other one that got to me was Alexis Denisof- “I don’t feel a hundred. I think we could make a hundred more.” :: sobs into hankerchief:: > -Lil I think the Rogue Demon Hunter is only 94 or so 😉 ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139/59 "2004-02-22T03:58:38Z")
> [@Annie](#): > > I think the Rogue Demon Hunter is only 94 or so 😉 Would that be in demon years? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-too-crushed-for-words-re-angel/229139.md?page=2)