# I'm voting for Kerry, but need facts about Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289 "2004-10-20T22:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/21 "2004-10-21T08:00:05Z")
I wrote a nice long post about some of the many things that are wrong with the No Child Left Behind Law. It disappeared when I hit “Submit.” But this website explains some of the problems with funding, lack of accomodations for special ed students, and the way the law encourages schools to encourage dropouts! [National Education Association](http://www.nea.org/neatoday/0305/cover.html) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/22 "2004-10-21T08:03:08Z")
I won’t go into specifics on the Patriot Act. But my signature is taken from a recent federal court ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/23 "2004-10-21T12:19:17Z")
You, my fellow Dopers, are golden. I just skimmed it for now, but your info is even better than I expected – and my expectations were already high. I don’t have time to respond right now. Plus, I haven’t checked to see if any of my areas were not addressed. I’ll be back this afternoon. If anyone has any additional information, please feel free to add to this. Thanks. By the way, today’s [electoral vote predictor](http://www.electoral-vote.com/) has Kerry at 271 votes. A dead heat for all practical purposes. Here’s a link to a WSJ summary of the [url=http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-battleground04-frameset.htmlbattleground states status. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/24 "2004-10-21T12:20:28Z")
Fixed link. Here’s a link to a WSJ summary of the [battleground states status.](http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-battleground04-frameset.html) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/25 "2004-10-22T14:29:12Z")
Algernon, I’m happy your looking for more informed ways of persuading voters… especially undecided ones. I started a thread a month ago about how to persuade a Bush voter… you might get some interesting info there too: [Best Arguments…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=273156) One argument I think is very effective is the fact that Kerry will face a Republican Congress… so he can’t do any “socialist” stuff… while Bush has never vetoed a single spending bill nor has congress barred him much. Bush and a Republican Congress means overspending guaranteed. Kerry in power means more responsible Congress and President. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/26 "2004-10-22T17:08:20Z")
Thank you all for your wonderful information. I deeply appreciate it. I followed and read all the links, both internal and external to the SDMB. This board is a wonderful resource. (And **Shayna** , I didn’t forget Kerry’s positive attributes, but your links _did_ supply me with some additional insights. Thanks.) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/27 "2004-10-22T23:27:37Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > By the way, today’s [electoral vote predictor](http://www.electoral-vote.com/) has Kerry at 271 votes. A dead heat for all practical purposes. Either you read that backwards or Kerry lost 14 points since you posted yesterday. Kerry: 257 Bush: 271 ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/28 "2004-10-22T23:31:08Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Either you read that backwards or Kerry lost 14 points since you posted yesterday. Kerry: 257 Bush: 271 Those have been going wonky a lot. I’ve seen 'em going all over the place. P.S., **Algernon,** I started a[thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=282413) about US Commission on Civil Rights report for George W. Bush and his administration that should have some good facts for you. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/29 "2004-10-23T14:34:24Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > Let me clarify for you **Mr. Moto**. These issues I’ve listed are only ancillary issues. Not even needed, but for a full perspective I thought I’d try to be thorough. > > I have plenty of other reasons to not vote for Bush, such as: > > - his inability to admit mistakes and correct course > - his screwing up of the economy (the deficit, the loss of jobs, etc.) > - his screwing up of the war on terrorism (abandoning Afghanistan for Iraq) > - his screwing up of post-war Iraq > - his misjudgement and out-and-out lies about the reasons to invade Iraq > - his embracing the neoconservative philosophy of unilateral pre-emptive military strike > - his pandering to the religious right > - his administration’s handling of the prisoner atrocities > - his stance against abortion and gay marriage > - the possibility that he will be able to appoint absurdly conservative judges to SCOTUS > - his abandonment of some of the Republican tenets I actually admire > > So please, don’t accuse me of not knowing why I’m not going to vote for Bush. It’s insulting. Ummm… - he hasn’t screwed up the American economy. In fact he’s done pretty well considering he’s sufferred the dot-bomb and 9/11. - he hasn’t abandoned Afghanistan. - he, like the rest of the world, **including Kerry** , was deceived over Iraq. He may not have told the truth, but that’s not the same as lying. - he’s a Christian right-winger so you can’t hold _trying to implement_ such policies against him though you obviously disagree with the policies themselves. Freedom of speech and all that. Right? - Kerry could appoint absurdly liberal judges to the Supreme Court. Your point is? And anyway, don’t they have to be ratified? The rest are actually reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/30 "2004-10-25T13:09:05Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Either you read that backwards or Kerry lost 14 points since you posted yesterday. Kerry: 257 Bush: 271 It changes every day. Sometimes by quite a bit, depending on the latest polls. For example, [today’s (Oct 25) chart shows Bush with 285 votes.](http://www.electoral-vote.com/) Interestingly though, the same chart [except modified based on somewhat dubious assumptions about how undecided voters will vote](http://www.electoral-vote.com/pred/index.html), shows Kerry with 284 votes. I think my attribution of this election still stands – it’s a dead heat. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/31 "2004-10-25T13:12:16Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Kerry could appoint absurdly liberal judges to the Supreme Court. Your point is? And anyway, don’t they have to be ratified? Due to a strongly conservative controlled Congress, it is unlikely that absurdly liberal judges could get ratified, yet is it _likely_ that absurdly conservative judges could be ratified. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/32 "2004-10-25T13:45:37Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > - he’s a Christian right-winger so you can’t hold **trying to implement** such policies against him though you obviously disagree with the policies themselves. Freedom of speech and all that. Right? Wrong. There is (or at least _should be_) a line regarding where personal belief ends and where attempts at legislating those beliefs begins. Funny that you refer to “freedom of speech” explicitly but include “separation of church and state” as part of “all that”. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/33 "2004-10-25T14:24:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > - he, like the rest of the world, **including Kerry** , was deceived over Iraq. He may not have told the truth, but that’s not the same as lying. This is one of the most horrific things I’ve seen. War is a matter of serious consequence- one of the gravest matters that a State can engage in. I assume that’s a given. Team Bush repeatedly “did not tell the truth” about matter of the most vital national interest. To split hairs about what does and does not technically count as a lie is to miss the point opf the fundamental and egregious dishonesty in a matter of lives and death. Second, they actually did tell some lies in addition to their concerted efforts to mislabel and misrepresent the case for invading Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/34 "2004-10-25T14:46:47Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > - he [Bush], like the rest of the world, **including Kerry** , was deceived over Iraq. He may not have told the truth, but that’s not the same as lying. Agreed that we don’t know he was lying, and I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Neverhteless, he’s the president, and should be held accountable for the bad intelligence. He’s a big ‘personal responsibility’ guy, right? Sitting at the desk with the ‘Buck Stops Here’ sign? ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/35 "2004-10-25T15:19:56Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > I have some friends who, believe it or not, are still on the fence about who to vote for on November 2. > > I’m writing a white paper for them, outlining the reasons why I’m voting for Kerry, and why they should also vote for Kerry. I have a lot of information and I think a pretty good argument. I don’t want to get off topic, but you did bring it up. You’re actually going to do this? :eek: I wouldn’t know what to do, even if my best friend tried this with me. I guess I wouldn’t be terribly mad, but a definite WTF would be in order, unless your friends requested this information… ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/36 "2004-10-25T15:30:28Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > I don’t want to get off topic, but you did bring it up. You’re actually going to do this? :eek: > > I wouldn’t know what to do, even if my best friend tried this with me. I guess I wouldn’t be terribly mad, but a definite WTF would be in order, unless your friends requested this information… I’m actually curious what it looks like. Care to share with the Dope, **Algernon?** ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/37 "2004-10-25T15:55:25Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I’m actually curious what it looks like. Care to share with the Dope, **Algernon?** I think it turned out quite well actually. A little hard to share though because it is a single-spaced twelve page Word document. > [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > I guess I wouldn’t be terribly mad, but a definite WTF would be in order, unless your friends requested this information… I imagine it _would_ raise the defensive hackles of the recipient if it arrived out of the blue. You can rest assured that the recipients all knew it was coming. The initial impetus to write it was a consequence of a discussion (well, an argument) I had with my voting age son. He was clearly mis-informed regarding a lot of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/38 "2004-10-25T16:02:45Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > I think it turned out quite well actually. A little hard to share though because it is a single-spaced twelve page Word document. If you email it to me, I’ll parse it for posting. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/39 "2004-10-25T19:46:40Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > Due to a strongly conservative controlled Congress, it is unlikely that absurdly liberal judges could get ratified, yet is it _likely_ that absurdly conservative judges could be ratified. How do you know that Congress won’t swing the other way very soon? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289/40 "2004-10-25T19:51:42Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > This is one of the most horrific things I’ve seen. Then I suggest you think things over. Consider a game of poker: you can only go by what people bet, plus what little evidence you have. Saddam turned the stakes up high, we bought it, raised the stakes higher, and then called it, finding that it was not true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-voting-for-kerry-but-need-facts-about-bush/270289.md?page=3)