# I'm watching ST: The Next Generation from the beginning **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 27, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181 "2012-02-27T20:20:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/101 "2012-03-08T19:31:08Z")
I liked the girls from blonde-world in ‘Justice’ 😃 But even way back then, it didn’t take me long to spot the giant plot hole in terms of how the Prime Directive is addressed in the plot: "No, we won’t beam Wesley up from your holding cell to our ship, even though we can and you’re wink-wink-nudge-nudge saying that you can’t stop us, because THAT would be _interfering in the development of your society._ But we can’t abandon Wesley to his death either. “So what will I do? I will stay here and argue with you about your philosophy of justice until you agree that your entire society’s approach to crime and punishment is wrong and you agree to hand Wesley back willingly.” (No, that couldn’t possibly interfere in the development of your society! What are you talking about?) ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/102 "2012-03-08T20:22:09Z")
I submit the very fact of appearing on their planet is a violation of the Prime Directive. Isn’t even giving their inventors and thinkers an idea that there’s this whole universe out there an interference? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/103 "2012-03-08T20:44:21Z")
In Voyager Janeway upholds the prime directive by destroying a space station that has been slowly being overun by the natives for years, they have finally gained the upper hand and victory is inevitable. So she blasts the thing to bits, because it somehow upholds the prime directive AND the natives are distasteful culturally(to Janeway at least). 😕Has the prime directive ever made sense? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/104 "2012-03-08T20:48:25Z")
> [@grude](#): > > 😕Has the prime directive ever made sense? It’s not as if we got the same courtesy what with the pyramids and crop circles and such. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/105 "2012-03-09T15:00:12Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I submit the very fact of appearing on their planet is a violation of the Prime Directive. Isn’t even giving their inventors and thinkers an idea that there’s this whole universe out there an interference? > [@grude](#): > > In Voyager Janeway upholds the prime directive by destroying a space station that has been slowly being overun by the natives for years, they have finally gained the upper hand and victory is inevitable. So she blasts the thing to bits, because it somehow upholds the prime directive AND the natives are distasteful culturally(to Janeway at least). > > 😕Has the prime directive ever made sense? If I remember correctly the prime directive doesn’t apply to warp capable species. The one with Wesley, I think they were more concerned with “Following local laws” rather than breaking the prime directive. I could be wrong. It’s been years since I watched the show. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/106 "2012-03-09T15:07:31Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > If I remember correctly the prime directive doesn’t apply to warp capable species. > > The one with Wesley, I think they were more concerned with “Following local laws” rather than breaking the prime directive. > > I could be wrong. It’s been years since I watched the show. I think that there are different levels to the interpretations of the Prime Directive. If they’re pre-warp and pre-first contact, then the directive is ‘hands off, do not let them know that we’re here.’ For the Edo in ‘Justice’, they were just warp-capable and used to visitors from star-faring races dropping by for a visit, but not nearly at the technological level of the Federation. So you could interact with them, but very circumspectly - avoiding being a jerk putting yourself on their level as much as practical, or at least that’s how I can best relate to the inconsistencies at this level. You can act as a peer, but not as a superior race telling them how to do things. And then, there are cultures like the Klingons, who are really at technological par with the Federation, but at least a trace of the Prime Directive lingers in their philosophy of non-interference with internal affairs - like in the ‘Klingon Civil War’ arc - the Federation can’t move starships into Klingon territory and fight on the side of the Supreme Chancellor, even though their alliance is with him and not with the rebels - but Picard can run a blocade on the Klingon-Romulan border and keep the Duras sisters from getting supplies from their Romulan allies. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/107 "2012-03-09T15:09:58Z")
I believe we’re all missing the point, which is that the writers of TNG missed a major opportunity to do something good in this episode when they chose not to have Wesley executed. God, that little twerp was annoying! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/108 "2012-03-09T15:34:41Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Ok, Patrick Stewart is one of the few men that could pull it off and make it sexy too. Actually, I seem to recall that they did some screen-testing with Stewart trying a French accent, and he couldn’t pull it off. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/109 "2012-03-09T17:15:10Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > I believe we’re all missing the point, which is that the writers of TNG missed a major opportunity to do something good in this episode when they chose not to have Wesley executed. God, that little twerp was annoying! > > 🙂 It’s not even just that Wesley is annoying. It’s everyone else fellating him constantly. UGH! ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/110 "2012-03-14T14:18:49Z")
Yes, I’m back. I’m still watching, admittedly slower than I would have if the show was really sucking me in. But Babylon 5 started out even slower than this. I watched “Haven” and “Hide and Q” over the last few days. (My life has been very busy!) Hide and Q was incredibly predictable. I was surprised to see Riker grow drunk with power so quickly; they could have at least made it believable. And he’s blaming Picard for the promise that he made? Not very honorable at all. I liked the bits with Picard on the ship and nothing working around him…pretty eerie. I did not like Tasha crying. WTF? And too much lecturing! Haven: This was actually kind of fun, even if it was a soap opera type of episode. The bickering was amusing though. The Riker thing made my jaw drop - so he has unlimited access to the holodrive and he decides he’s going to summon up two girls playing harp together? Even I can think of better things than that! But overall as I said a very entertaining episode, with Majel Roddenberry playing Lxwana for all she’s worth, embarrasing Picard and everyone else in a charming way that would drive me batty if she were my mother. Oh, and LURCH! ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/111 "2012-03-14T16:35:53Z")
No mention of skewered Wesley? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/112 "2012-03-14T16:56:43Z")
Can someone explain the Wesley thing to me please? For me the first couple of series are partially ruined by everyone snapping at wesley and not listening to him, even though he’s always correct when he cries wolf. I feel sorry for him. Is the hate because he’s too perfect? Because the same is true of many of the characters (e.g. when did jordi ever show any weakness at anything)? * * * Just to add, the first series _are_ pretty bad in retrospect . Last ep I saw, they detected an unknown kind of ship approaching _cue super dramatic music_ Then for like a minute everyone’s just looking at each other with shocked expressions “OMG not…a ship!” ---
**Author:** ![a35362](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@a35362](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a35362)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/113 "2012-03-14T17:23:01Z")
I guess Gene Roddenberry wrote Wesley as a “Mary Sue” (or “Marty Stu”) sort of character – one who represents the writer and is perfect in all things, better than the adults. That’s always going to be annoying. Viewers dumped on Wesley (and Wil Wheaton, the young actor who played him) WAY out of proportion to what the character deserved (not to mention the actor, who was only doing the job he was hired to do). ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/114 "2012-03-14T17:23:23Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Can someone explain the Wesley thing to me please? He’s a completely unnecessary character that serves to show just how badly written the show was at times. You have one of the most advanced starships in the Federation, crewed presumably by a bunch of up and comers, and they are constantly one-upped by a teenager. That doesn’t make much sense. Also the fact that they need a teenager (no matter how talented) to get them out of scrapes just means the Federation is a bunch of dolts with an occasional bright ray of hope, except when Wesley is NOT in the episode. Then, the crew gets to be competent again. Beyond that, Wesley is usually right about stuff, but the crew continues to ignore his suggestions for large portions of episodes. Why? Surely this bright crew of righteous do-gooders eventually notices that this particularly smart kid has his head screwed on straight. Right? He’s good enough that he’s made an “acting Ensign” (which is complete BS in its own way) but not good enough to merit any attention when the script calls for the crew to ignore him. It’s just poor, lazy writing to make the show more family friendly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/115 "2012-03-14T17:33:18Z")
> [@a35362](#): > > I guess Gene Roddenberry wrote Wesley as a “Mary Sue” (or “Marty Stu”) sort of character – one who represents the writer and is perfect in all things, better than the adults. I thought the appeal was supposed to be for kids watching the show – _“he’s a kid, I’m a kid; grown-ups keep brushing him off, grown-ups keep brushing me off; he’s coming up with brilliant ideas to save the day; I could come up with brilliant ideas to save the day!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/116 "2012-03-14T17:56:50Z")
Along with all of the other reasons provided, I don’t want to see an annoying teenager in what is a show filled with adults. If I wanted that I’d watch buffy. Honestly, why couldn’t the adults come up with the brilliant solutions? They are high-ranking members of Starfleet; are we to assume any kid is just as good? No? Then why see Wesley all the time? Sometimes teenagers/kids are handled well. Wesley was not. It derails the whole plot for us to have to sit and listen to a whiny teenager school the adults. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/117 "2012-03-14T17:57:48Z")
Ah ok, cool, I agree with the unrealistic nature of the non academy trained teenager being the only bright spark. I still don’t get the whiny thing. I would certainly whine x10 if I’d saved the ship from destruction several times yet people won’t even let me complete a sen- ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/118 "2012-03-14T18:03:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Ah ok, cool, I agree with the unrealistic nature of the non academy trained teenager being the only bright spark. > > I still don’t get the whiny thing. I would certainly whine x10 if I’d saved the ship from destruction several times yet people won’t even let me complete a sen- Ha! But then, Wesley go back to your freakin school studies and ace everyone of them and become the highest ranking officer in fucking Starfleet or something. Don’t come where you’re not wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/119 "2012-03-14T19:52:48Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > I liked the girls from blonde-world in ‘Justice’ 😃 But even way back then, it didn’t take me long to spot the giant plot hole in terms of how the Prime Directive is addressed in the plot: > > "No, we won’t beam Wesley up from your holding cell to our ship, even though we can and you’re wink-wink-nudge-nudge saying that you can’t stop us, because THAT would be _interfering in the development of your society._ But we can’t abandon Wesley to his death either. > > “So what will I do? I will stay here and argue with you about your philosophy of justice until you agree that your entire society’s approach to crime and punishment is wrong and you agree to hand Wesley back willingly.” > > (No, that couldn’t possibly interfere in the development of your society! What are you talking about?) This episode demonstrated that no matter how important the Prime Directive was, it was not as important as the problem of writers who wrote themselves into a corner finishing the script by the deadline. Really pitiful. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181/120 "2012-03-14T21:50:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I thought the appeal was supposed to be for kids watching the show – _“he’s a kid, I’m a kid; grown-ups keep brushing him off, grown-ups keep brushing me off; he’s coming up with brilliant ideas to save the day; I could come up with brilliant ideas to save the day!”_ That probably featured in the thinking somewhat. Such a character was absent from DS9, even though you had young characters like Jake Sisko and Nog (who had the kinds of issues and relationships with people that you would expect teenagers to, rather than be constantly saving the day). The focus of DS9 was very different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/im-watching-st-the-next-generation-from-the-beginning/614181.md?page=7)