I really like that idea, having the character take over almost? It makes sense to me that as you develop a character in a book, so he/she will head off in directions you hadnt originally envisaged as depth is added in the writing as to WHO they are.
Have you ever ended up in a completely different place story wise as a result?
I feel if I don’t know where I am going, I most likely will not get there. So I always plot whatever I am writing out on a white board or two in my office before I begin. There will occassionally be detours but I find if I want it to sell, it has got to be tight. And If I want it to be tight, I have to follow my outline.
Just the way I am.
TV
Thanks TV Time.
Does the white board or two ever grow to three, or four?
I think my only concern now is that the writing will runaway with me and I’ll have too much. In keeping to a DEFINITE outline and keeping it ‘tight’, do you not ever feel that you might be missing something out that would have made the book even better?
Thanks
On one occasion I used three but it didn’t “grow” to three - When I was doing the initial work I added the third board to tighten the story line down even more. Probably my biggest additions to the boards once I have begun are secondary characters to iron out plot points or cut down on long speeches by a single character or long exposition.
Rarely, my experience with (good) editors early on was that their favorite phrase tended to be, “Do you really need…” In spite of the comments being painful, they were (are) usually right.
There are wonderful authors that can ramble and still stay on task like Vonnegut, Tom Wolfe and even Thakeray, but I am not one of them.
I would imagine when it gets to the editing stage your book feels like your baby - and editors like Cruella De Ville!!
Very much the case. I will have spent a great deal of time working out some business or exposition that I think is brilliant, but then I get calls or notes on pages saying, “This doesn’t really help,” or “Do you really think this is necessary?”
Like children, however, the more you have, the more willing you are to see the changes. I felt my first published work was butchered (looking back it wasn’t) but now I am more willing to release each thing I write to others. I think I have come to accept it (editing) as part of the writing process (afterall are we really writers until someone reads our work? - I’ve talked to musicians and painters who feel they don’t need listeners or viewers to create art. That is definitely not the case with me and writing - but I definitely doubt if I am an artist in the “artistic” sense).
Also, the more I write, I find I am getting fewer and fewer changes. I am not sure what that means. Am I writing better (in the eyes of the editors)? Am I writing more commericially? Are the editors getting lazy? Have they lost all hope for me improving?
I suspect the first two! 
If they had lost all hope for you, I dont suppose they would even be looking at a second manuscript!
So…the first editing experience is going to be the worst then…hmmm. Maybe I’ll submit it when the time comes and then run and hide!
Well…you may want to run and hide just because of all the rejection first. Getting it accepted after scores (it feels like thousands) of rejections is so exciting that you’re willing to make any changes to see your name in print - just to prove to yourself that you really are a writer.
One of the best books about writing (IMO) is Annie Lamott’s Bird By Bird.
It has alot of good advice, especially about discipline and writer’s block. It also helps that she has a dark, twisted sense of humor.
I am also working on a murder mystery–if I would ever take Annie’s advice and get offline and actually finish the damned thing! Her advice has been good.
It is hard to cut stuff but really, like cutting back old growth in a garden, editing is vital to any work. It makes that which is left all the stronger and more vibrant (if it’s decent editing!).
good luck from one aspiring writer to another.
Stephen King’s On Writing had a good formula for re-writes -
I can’t find my copy, but I think it was
1st draft - 30%
He also had an good term for editing - kill your babies.
I can see this is going to be a painful process isnt it?!
I just hope I wont be the first writer to grab the editor by the scruff of the neck!
I can understadn that the editing - good editing at least - makes the work stronger, but I imagine thats a LEARNED process?!
Ernest Hemingway used to set out to write one “perfect” paragraph per day.
Georges Simenon who among over a hundred novels had the Maigret series used to have himself shut in a room for (IIRC) 13 days. He would complete his first draft in that time.
So different strokes I guess.
A friend who is a comedy writer heard about the “not editing” maxim and, although it was the opposite of his usual writing practice, tried it with great success. He doubled his output of usable jokes by writing 10 times as many - most were junk. He says it only works for him for things where he has a subject and just wants any joke he can write that works. He says that the trick to “not editing” is to genuinely not edit - he writes down stuff that he knows he will edit out because to not do so starts you into editing. I hope that makes sense because it did when he explained it to me.
The not editing way is supposed to help you tap into some heretofore undiscovered creativity–unknown paths, unseen connections and all that.
But is also helps with the school marm in your head that says, “that’s no good”; “who would want to read that”; “you think YOU can write?” etc.
You can always shred the tripe that you don’t want later.
I try very hard to just write it all down–and God help me, I can’t.
Good luck!
I can’t remember the author who said it, but it says a lot about the profession, “I love having written. I hate writing.”
In fact Hemingway so violently attacked an editor one time (I think at Scribners) that the editor went running out of the building and had to be treated by a doctor.
Posted by Dont Ask
WOW!! 13 days…?! Mind you - if he truly completed his first draft in 13 days - makes you wonder if it might be worth a try! (could be pretty good for the diet too!)
Posted by Eleanorigby
But is also helps with the school marm in your head that says, “that’s no good”; “who would want to read that”; “you think YOU can write?” etc.
I was about to ask how you get past the thoughts of ‘Is this good enough for anyone to WANT to read’??!! Or do you not? Do you just write it for YOU and only you?
Posted by TV Time
a) I can’t remember the author who said it, but it says a lot about the profession, “I love having written. I hate writing.”
So whilst Im writing its going to be a difficult process, but once Ive written, I’ll sit back and feel Ive really achieved something special? Or perhaps just be glad its over!
b) In fact Hemingway so violently attacked an editor one time (I think at Scribners) that the editor went running out of the building and had to be treated by a doctor.
I think I really like Hemmingway - or at the very least sympathise HUGELY with him!
Many writers write for a specific someone, and that’s also a piece of advice often given to beginners. Pick someone, and write for that person. A sibling, a parent, a friend, a relative, whatever.
That doesn’t really work for me, but it does wonders for some. I write for pretty much nobody.
For me at least, I write for readers. As I said above, a composer, a painter, a sculpture and even a poet may be able to just create, but (I at least feel) a writer needs readers to truly be a writer.
And about the ever getting past “the thoughts of ‘is this good enough for anyone to want to read?’” - Our buddy Hemingway blew his brains out with a shotgun because he felt he could no longer produce. So no, I guess some of us never do. Probably if we do, we lose that edge. Who knows? I know I am insecure as hell about my writing.
Once again, I can only speak for myself, every writer is different. Maybe it is a little bit of both - Of course, then the fear of whether anyone will like it enough to purchase it for a sale kicks in, and once that passes, the fear of whether anyone will purchase it to read kicks in. God, writers are screwed up individuals.
He had that effect on people. Of course, he tended to use people up and throw them away. He had that kind of zest, that kind of appetite. But seldom did those people hold it against him.
So when you say you write for readers - or pick someone to write for and write for them… do you mean you are consciously choosing the market for your book before /as you write it? That doesnt sound very clear does it?
Let me try again.
Do you STYLE the way your book is written/the characters etc on the basis of the audience you choose?