# Image verification fields anger me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702 "2008-12-11T10:47:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/21 "2008-12-13T16:30:00Z")
I saw a fascinating talk a little while ago by Luis van Ahn, a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon who invented the [captcha](http://www.captcha.net/). He was describing their efforts to harness all the image processing that’s going on with these verification tests, and it’s really quite brilliant. Two that stood out: 1. The [reCaptcha](http://recaptcha.net/learnmore.html) project, where you give a user two words, one to prove they’re human, the other a word that OCR was unable to process when digitizing books. 2. The [GWAP](http://www.gwap.com/gwap/) site, where they have games that simultaneously do similar tasks, like image/audio recognition. The ESP game is my favorite. It’s surprisingly fun, too. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/22 "2008-12-13T19:42:52Z")
I sometimes play Spades or other games on Yahoo! Games, and they require an image verification every time to log into the game chat rooms. It’s really hard, and I only succeed in getting it after 3 or 4 tries usually. Yet in **every single room** there are spambots anyway. Le sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/23 "2008-12-13T22:04:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There is one : asking a simple factual question that anyone could answer to, but a machine couldn’t. Stuff like “what colour is the sky ?” or “How many States are there ?”. 1: Black with white spots 2: Three (solid, liquid, gas) ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/24 "2008-12-14T03:50:06Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > 1: Black with white spots > > 2: Three (solid, liquid, gas) Ahh, that’s how you sign up to the _[boards.smartass.com](http://boards.smartass.com)_ forum, no? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/25 "2008-12-14T08:51:28Z")
No, but I do have a point - general knowledge questions that seem obvious to one person (for example, an American, or an avid movie-goer, or a sports fan), may be completely opaque to someone else. Interestingly, there was another thread on exactly this topic recently, in which someone also gave a couple of examples of obvious, common-knowledges questions that included one that was also limited by geography. ETA: here’s the thread: > **[Are captchas more trouble than they are worth?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=487827)** > > Inspired by THIS thread… Apparently the hackers and spammers have little trouble cracking these anymore. Is there a better way I wonder? How about a quick question on some pop-culture reference (a la American GIs who would quiz suspected German... ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/26 "2008-12-14T10:27:01Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No, but I do have a point - general knowledge questions that seem obvious to one person (for example, an American, or an avid movie-goer, or a sports fan), may be completely opaque to someone else. > > Interestingly, there was another thread on exactly this topic recently, in which someone also gave a couple of examples of obvious, common-knowledges questions that included one that was also limited by geography. > > ETA: here’s the thread: > [Are captchas more trouble than they are worth? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=487827) I’ll begrudgingly give you the States one (although I do believe anyone with access to internet is aware of a country called the United States, capitalization not optional, and where to look to learn how many of those there are), but you’re reaching for zebras on the sky question. If I give you a picture of a couple, with the question “how many people in this picture are women ?”, you’re not immediately going to think “none, the other one is a pre-operative trans-sexual”. A bit of occam’s razor and common sense is expected on the part of the quizzee. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/27 "2008-12-14T11:08:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’ll begrudgingly give you the States one (although I do believe anyone with access to internet is aware of a country called the United States, capitalization not optional, and where to look to learn how many of those there are), but you’re reaching for zebras on the sky question. If I give you a picture of a couple, with the question “how many people in this picture are women ?”, you’re not immediately going to think “none, the other one is a pre-operative trans-sexual”. > > A bit of occam’s razor and common sense is expected on the part of the quizzee. \ The sky is black with white spots at least as often as it is blue. And since when are pre-operative MTF transsexuals not women? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/28 "2008-12-14T11:21:16Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No, but I do have a point - general knowledge questions that seem obvious to one person (for example, an American, or an avid movie-goer, or a sports fan), may be completely opaque to someone else. > > Interestingly, there was another thread on exactly this topic recently, in which someone also gave a couple of examples of obvious, common-knowledges questions that included one that was also limited by geography. > > ETA: here’s the thread: > [Are captchas more trouble than they are worth? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=487827) I know, and I agree. The first thing I thought when I read the supposed “How many states are there?” was that someone outside the US would probably not know what the question is about, let alone the correct answer. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/29 "2008-12-14T11:44:57Z")
The best anti bot device I have seen is the one for my phone company **3**. You have a 4 digit PIN but you enter it by mouse clicking on a grid of 12 squares like on an ATM, CLR is bottom left DEL is bottom right and the 10 digits are randomized over the other squares. Simple and foolproof and I never get it wrong like the “type the letters your frail old eyes can barely make out” ones. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/30 "2008-12-14T12:09:19Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > The [reCaptcha](http://recaptcha.net/learnmore.html) project, where you give a user two words, one to prove they’re human, the other a word that OCR was unable to process when digitizing books. When I first glanced at that page I thought it was for truly bored people who wanted to do captcha’s all day long to help. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/31 "2008-12-14T12:26:03Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Interestingly, there was another thread on exactly this topic recently, in which someone also gave a couple of examples of obvious, common-knowledges questions that included one that was also limited by geography. > > ETA: here’s the thread: > [Are captchas more trouble than they are worth? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=487827) Haven’t opened your link yet, but wanted to say, perhaps redundently, that when I was in Australia last year, it drove me nuts to keep seeing “NSW: The First State” on things. I kept thinking, “No, that’s Delaware.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/32 "2008-12-14T12:47:12Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > \ The sky is black with white spots at least as often as it is blue. And since when are pre-operative MTF transsexuals not women? But for most of recorded history, man has slept when the sky turned black with white spots. Hence the sky=blue automatic association. Put it another way : the sky is blue. The \*night \*sky is black. Without the qualification, any reader would assume a day sky. Back on topic, and for the purpose of spambot foiling, all that malarkey doesn’t really matter : you could set up the “What colour is the sky ?” question to accept “blue”, “sky blue”, “black”, “black with white dots” and any number or variations on the theme of atmospheric pigmentation as valid answers, yet still trip a computer. As to the trans thing, grmbl, should have stuck to that “legs on a dog” example. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/33 "2008-12-14T15:04:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’ll begrudgingly give you the States one (although I do believe anyone with access to internet is aware of a country called the United States, capitalization not optional, and where to look to learn how many of those there are), but you’re reaching for zebras on the sky question. I certainly was being deliberately obtuse, but to demonstrate a point. General knowledge questions are not necessarily universal. I believe there are some places in the world where ‘sky’ and ‘grey’ are the same word. > [@](#): > > If I give you a picture of a couple, with the question “how many people in this picture are women ?”, you’re not immediately going to think “none, the other one is a pre-operative trans-sexual”. Perhaps - although again, the cultural context of the recipient cannot be simply brushed over - how reliably, for example, could you identify the genders of the people in [this](http://www.harrietharman.org/fileadmin/high-res/harriet-many-african-kids.jpg) picture? > [@](#): > > A bit of occam’s razor and common sense is expected on the part of the quizzee. Perhaps - and far _more_ forethought on the part of the quizzer. That was my point, really - not that it’s impossible, merely that problems are often not so simple as initially stated. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/34 "2008-12-14T15:27:32Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > \ The sky is black with white spots at least as often as it is blue. And since when are pre-operative MTF transsexuals not women? Nope it isn’t. Do to atmospheric effects light is reflected to darker parts after the sun sets. Haven’t you ever noticed the sky starts turning blue before the sun rises and stays darker and darker shades of blue after it sets? Who thinks of the night sky when you ask what color the sky is anyway? That’s just willfully obtuse. The kind of idiot you don’t want signing up anyway. Besides I’d much prefer questions. These idiots who make capchas make them so it bloody impossible to tell what it says anyway. I’d much rather deal with the occasionally tricky questions then having 4 or 5 guranteed fails after squinting for 3 minutes to see it’s a 3 or squiggly line. In short the people who make captchas are self centered assholes or egghead morons so out of touch with reality they should be looked up in the nuthous. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/35 "2008-12-14T15:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps - although again, the cultural context of the recipient cannot be simply brushed over - how reliably, for example, could you identify the genders of the people in [this](http://www.harrietharman.org/fileadmin/high-res/harriet-many-african-kids.jpg) picture? I think so, yes - the only face giving me trouble (save for the ones of whom you only see half a forehead of course) is, oddly enough, the clearest one. Can’t tell if the person staring straight at the camera right in the middle foreground is a boy or girl. First instinct was “boy”, but now I’m not too sure. Oh, and I can’t figure out whether the thing clad in blue in the center of the frame is a horse or some kind of fish 🙂 > [@](#): > > Perhaps - and far _more_ forethought on the part of the quizzer. That was my point, really - not that it’s impossible, merely that problems are often not so simple as initially stated. Then we’re in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/36 "2008-12-14T15:40:05Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I certainly was being deliberately obtuse, but to demonstrate a point. General knowledge questions are not necessarily universal. I believe there are some places in the world where ‘sky’ and ‘grey’ are the same word. Well couldn’t you do questions in their language then? Wouldn’t someone accessing an English site need basic English skills such that might know the difference between English blue and gray? What about places in the world that don’t use Latin alphabets? All captchas I’ve seen use Latin alphabets and Arabic numbers. Don’t captchas block users from those places? Clearly we need to abolish them and shift to something less egocentric. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/37 "2008-12-14T20:24:06Z")
I really feel for blind users-- the other day, I couldn’t figure out a captcha and there was no refresh button, so I thought, “hey, might as well try the audio option”. Uh, giant WTF. I think they were trying to obscure the reading of the actual letters with other random voices and sounds, but I had no idea which I was supposed to be listening to and none sounded remotely like letters. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/38 "2008-12-15T12:11:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But for most of recorded history, man has slept when the sky turned black with white spots. Hence the sky=blue automatic association. Put it another way : the sky is blue. The \*night \*sky is black. Without the qualification, any reader would assume a day sky. Just to pick at this one again (for nothing more than fun, really). Without qualification, shouldn’t a reader actually assume that the question is immediate - i.e. what colour is the sky _now_? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/39 "2008-12-15T13:53:10Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Just to pick at this one again (for nothing more than fun, really). Without qualification, shouldn’t a reader actually assume that the question is immediate - i.e. what colour is the sky _now_? All right, goddammit. You wanna post on my forum, you tell me what colour the sky is at noon on a summer day assuming a total dearth of clouds, fog, precipitations or meteorological phenomena of any kind ! There. Now the below-average reader has to look up “dearth” and “phenomena”, and by the time he comes back, the question has timed out 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Erasmus\_Darwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@Erasmus\_Darwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erasmus_Darwin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702/40 "2008-12-15T15:08:19Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > The best anti bot device I have seen is the one for my phone company **3**. You have a 4 digit PIN but you enter it by mouse clicking on a grid of 12 squares like on an ATM, CLR is bottom left DEL is bottom right and the 10 digits are randomized over the other squares. Simple and foolproof and I never get it wrong like the “type the letters your frail old eyes can barely make out” ones. That’s not an anti-bot device. That’s an anti-password theft device. A customized bot wouldn’t have too much trouble with a scheme like that, though it might have a small deterrent effect against a casual bot effort. But if there’s some sort of key logger on your computer, it won’t catch any typing (since it’s all mouse based), and even knowing where you clicked your mouse would be useless (since the numbers change position). The only way for a program to steal your PIN would be to get a screencap of the PIN entry screen and to track where you clicked. While that’s not impossible, it’s relatively unlikely for your average malware keylogger to pull it off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/image-verification-fields-anger-me/476702.md?page=3)