# Imagine, if you will... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413 "2000-11-30T19:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/1 "2000-11-30T19:07:01Z")
A Zimbabwe politician was quoted as saying that children should study the US election event closely because it shows that election fraud is not only a third world phenomena. To illustrate the point, he made the following comments: > [@](#): > > Imagine that we read of an election occurring > anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared > winner was the son of the former prime minister and > that former prime minister was himself the former head > of that nation’s secret police/intelligence agency. > > Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular > vote but won based on some old colonial holdover from > the nation’s pre-democracy past(the electoral > college). > > Imagine that the self-declared winner’s ‘victory’ > turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed > by his brother! > > Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one > district, a district heavily favouring the > self-declared winner’s opponent, led thousands of > voters to vote for the wrong candidate. > > Imagine that members of that nation’s most despised > caste, fearing for their livelihoods, turned out in > record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to > the self-declared winner’s candidacy. > > Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised > caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by > state police operating under the authority of the > self-declared winner’s brother. > > Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed > province and that the self-declared winner’s ‘lead’ > was only 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote > counting machines’ margin of error. > > Imagine that the self-declared winner and his > political party opposed a more careful by-hand > inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the > disputed province or in its most hotly disputed > district. > > Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a > governor of a major province, had the worst human > rights record of any province in his nation and > actually led the nation in executions. > > Imagine that a major campaign promise of the > self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human > rights violators to lifetime positions on the high > court of that nation. > > None of us would deem such an election to be > representative of anything other than the > self-declared winner’s will-to-power. All of us, I > imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it > was another sad tale of a third world country. Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/2 "2000-11-30T19:21:15Z")
If a Zimbabwean actually said that, I’ll eat my own shorts – and _your_ shorts, too. Unwashed. It’s obviously from the pen of a disappointed U.S. of A. Democrat. Federalism is _not_ a holdover from colonialism. Those districts are only the most hotly contested because those are the counties where Gore expected to gain the most votes. Yeah, Florida’s governed by Jeb, but WTF? The “butterfly” ballots were designed by Theresa LePore, a Democrat. Trite and self-righteous. Hell, maybe it _was_ written by Robert Mugabe. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/3 "2000-11-30T20:59:51Z")
Pure propaganda, yet it certainly does manage to cast Bush in the worst light I have seen yet. Like all good propaganda, it manages to use innuendo and just enough truth to sound reasonable. I give it a score of 8.5. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/4 "2000-12-01T00:35:40Z")
If this is truly a democrat being witty, I find it remarkably witty. Makes me want to read Illuminatus! Trilogy all over again. Anyone notice there were 46 lines in the OP’quote? 23 X 2. Where’s the 3 to complete the pentad? Why, three lines outside of the quote. I smell something, all right… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/5 "2000-12-01T00:40:19Z")
sorry if I didn’t clean it up into nice little paragraphs for you. Now, would you like to read what it says instead of looking at the pretty patterns? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/6 "2000-12-01T02:03:44Z")
I _thought_ those lyrics to John Lennon’s “Imagine” didn’t look right! ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/7 "2000-12-01T02:23:49Z")
As the Illuminatus! remark hopefully made clear, it sounds like typical conspiracy theory. About a guy who is called “stupid.” So which is it? Is he an idiot that shouldn’t be president or a part on some conspiracy to be president and hence, shouldn’t be president. For this to be true, even Gore would have needed to be in on it, to be just enough of a jerk to not win enough states for the election to go to him. But Gore’s been a jerk a long time, so I wouldn’t doubt Clinton was a part of it too, and wasn’t he a rhodes scholar? But of course, I can be more specific and serious if that’s what’s necessary. > [@](#): > > Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favouring the > self-declared winner’s opponent, led thousands of > voters to vote for the wrong candidate. But not a vote for Bush, just so there was no clear victory. After all, THAT would have been better. Why contrive a ballot to make gor voters vote for Buchannon when they could mistakenly vote for Bush intead? Now that’s a conspiracy. [/bitchin’] ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/8 "2000-12-01T02:51:18Z")
What was the Zimbabwean politican’s name? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/9 "2000-12-01T04:52:45Z")
> [@](#): > > the self-declared > winner was the son of the former prime minister and > that former prime minister was himself the former head > of that nation’s secret police/intelligence agency. And the loser is the sitting Vice-President of a two-term President. > [@](#): > > based on some old colonial holdover from > the nation’s pre-democracy past(the electoral > college). It’s called a Constitutional Republic. I’m sure the whole of Bill of Rights qualifies as a “colonial holdover.” And WTF is that @#$% about pre-democracy past? > [@](#): > > the self-declared winner’s ‘victory’ > turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed > by his brother! DAMN!!! Do you mean all this time all the loser had to do was refuse to concede? That’s it? Just argue and argue? > [@](#): > > the poorly drafted ballots of one > district, a district heavily favouring the > self-declared winner’s opponent, led thousands of > voters to vote for the wrong candidate. Yes, please imagine just how **STUPID** the losing candidates party and supporters were to allow this to happen to themselves in a territory where they called all the shots. > [@](#): > > members of that nation’s most despised > caste, fearing for their livelihoods, turned out in > record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to > the self-declared winner’s candidacy. I thought the Christians voted for Bush? > [@](#): > > hundreds of members of that most-despised > caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by > state police operating under the authority of the > self-declared winner’s brother. Cite please? I will be requiring affidavits and formal charges as acceptable proof this time. > [@](#): > > six million people voted in the disputed > province and that the self-declared winner’s ‘lead’ > was only 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote > counting machines’ margin of error. And this means the only acceptable solution is… We keep counting until Gore wins and then we stop? > [@](#): > > the self-declared winner, himself a > governor of a major province, had the worst human > rights record of any province in his nation and > actually led the nation in executions. And the loser is also pro-death penalty. And the winner is also known for carrying out the duties that go along with his office, as he knows he is a servant, not a King who will do as he pleases. > [@](#): > > Imagine that a major campaign promise of the > self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human > rights violators to lifetime positions on the high > court of that nation. And the loser, once again, agrees…? I’m confused. What am I supposed to be imagining again? > [@](#): > > that the self-declared winner and his > political party opposed a more careful by-hand > inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the > disputed province or in its most hotly disputed > district. Imagine the loser was being accused of manufacturing votes instead of counting them? Imagine that the candidate being accused of vote fraud had the son of an infamous American politician who is famous for “stealing” a presidentail election in 1960 as his campaign manager. > [@](#): > > None of us would deem such an election to be > representative of anything other than the > self-declared winner’s will-to-power. All of us, I > imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it > was another sad tale of a third world country. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm… I think you may be reaching. I have faith that some of us might wonder if there is another side to the story instead of sucking the media version down like lunch. If anyone finds propaganda this obvious to be persuasive, I suggest they abandon the fight against ignorance and realize they are the target. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/10 "2000-12-01T05:06:20Z")
I have a hard time believing that this is a credible source. This is kinda, you know, out there just a tad. This more democratic rhetoric located in one thread than all other elections threads combined. Yes, even the ones started by Stoidela. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/11 "2000-12-01T05:18:23Z")
It certainly is good propaganda: it certainly has the piss flowing in the Republicans who’ve read it. Actually, on my first pass, I didn’t see it as a claim to a conspiracy theory. It sounded more like a cautionary screed about assuming that elections in third world countries aren’t always ‘banana republic’ affairs, even if government is a family matter. Like it or not, this election has the appearance of impropriety on a lot of different levels, irrespective of actual voting irregularities. Of course, that’s assuming that the Zimbabwean actually turns up. If not, we’ll file it with the emails about “You have a right to try very hard to be a good conservative” and “Bill Clinton plans to fly the flag below the Vietnamese flag on his upcoming trip.” ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/12 "2000-12-01T16:01:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > \*\* > Actually, on my first pass, I didn’t see it as a claim to a conspiracy theory. It sounded more like a cautionary screed about assuming that elections in third world countries aren’t always ‘banana republic’ affairs, even if government is a family matter. Like it or not, this election has the appearance of impropriety on a lot of different levels, irrespective of actual voting irregularities. > > \*\* Yeah that’s what I thought too. I don’t know if there’s a Zimbabwean, but I could see other countries (African, South American) looking at our election that way. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/13 "2000-12-01T16:25:34Z")
‘Self-declared winner’? Didn’t the States declare him the winner, where appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/14 "2000-12-01T17:50:13Z")
Hansel and betenoir have got it right - this isn’t as much of a conspiracy broadside as a rather illuminating (cough)exercise in viewpoint. Ocassionally I’ll read about elections and wars in Africa and wonder how much of the story the AP is missing. I’m sure that a foriegn journalist is going to look at problems in Zaire, for example, differently than someone living there. Assuming you’re a member of the ideal/highest is often a classic blunder. It’s useful to remember that a great deal of the world does not believe that America is the best thing imaginable, and much of that great deal lives in societies most Americians would find hellish, if not at least uncomfortable. Are these folk stupid and ignorant to dislike America as a result? For the most part, I believe no. I should add that I believe electing the son of a former president smacks of a ruling class. I don’t believe that a ruling class exists at the moment - but the appearance of it is unnerving. Thank God for our indecisiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Surgoshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Surgoshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surgoshan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/15 "2000-12-01T18:00:12Z")
They went back and forth claiming to have won. ---
**Author:** ![BunnyGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@BunnyGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyGirl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/16 "2000-12-01T20:55:00Z")
Barton, hear, hear! ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/17 "2000-12-01T21:14:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blessedwolf \* > **None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner’s will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of a third world country.** Heh, heh, heh. Nice one. Speaking of conspiricies, how about a reverse: according to the Master Plan Bush gets in, sets about making the US into one big Texas - and it’s Hillary in '04 by a landslide! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/18 "2000-12-02T01:30:34Z")
Freedom2 wrote: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > members of that nation’s most despised > > caste, fearing for their livelihoods, turned out in > > record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to > > the self-declared winner’s candidacy. > > I thought the Christians voted for Bush? Christians are “that nation’s most despised caste”? I see someone here hasn’t read [Life In Our “Anti-Christian” America](http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/lioaca.html) yet! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/19 "2000-12-02T01:47:38Z")
No, obviously white males are:) ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413/20 "2000-12-02T02:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > No, obviously white males are:) The pathetic part is that some people (maybe even you…I don’t know) actually seem to believe this! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imagine-if-you-will/43413.md?page=2)