# IMHO, "Confidence comes before success" puts the cart before the horse, and often starts a vicious cycle **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 7, 2023, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312 "2023-04-07T13:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/21 "2023-05-12T18:15:57Z")
Double posting to ask - Do you remember your successes or your failures better? And which more fondly? _My_ favorite memories are the glorious failures. The time we made a Sponge Bob costume for son number three by glueing yellow Cello sponges to a cardboard box … and then it rained. We left a trail of sponges behind us. No success makes me smile in recollection as much as that failure memory does! ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/22 "2023-05-12T20:41:57Z")
Confidence is only helpful in some situations. Plenty of blowhards have, or convincingly fake, a surfeit of confidence in certain situations. People confident in one setting may not be confident in every setting. Gaining skills is better, and often leads to genuine confidence in those areas, but not necessarily in others. Gaining skills involves some degree and acceptance of failure and the mindset one can and will improve. Success can cause too much confidence, which is not always helpful, especially in areas far removed from the skill set which fuelled it, though some people are genuine dilettantes. Success does increase confidence and is often a matter of luck, skill, timing, perspicacity and perseverance. Confidence increases the chances of success when some of the other elements are there. People are often tolerant of limited humblebragging. They tend to dislike narcissists. But what they dislike most are phonies. Having the “confidence” to spout untruths or half-truths is not necessarily very adaptive. But in smaller quantities, sometimes the cart comes before the horse and sometimes not. Is “a positive mindset” or “belief you can overcome difficulties through diligence” a form of confidence? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2023, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/23 "2023-05-17T11:00:51Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > This is a big thing in education world; the buzzwords are “growth mindset” and “grit”. Like many things, it can be taken too far. There’s also the “10,000 hours” thing. If the rate of improvement remains glacial, it can get extremely frustrating. To someone with an aptitude for music, or whatever the skill, the 10,000 hours will probably go by a lot faster. For me it’s one of those “true up to a point” things that can easily devolve into someone being told “you’re just not working hard enough.” A lot of people quote that Malcom Gladwell number (10,000 hours) without taking time to think what that really means (and most of them never actually read the rest of his book “Outliers”). - 50 hours might be a typical college course and associated study time - A high school athlete who put in lets say an average of 1 productive hour a day into their sport since age 5 would be 3600 by freshman year. - If you did something as your full time job, 8 productive hours a day, 5 days a week, for 4 years, you would hit 10,000 hours. But most people aren’t productive a full 8 hours at any job. And most likely this would be on top of what your actual job is. And people do have certain inane talents or aptitudes that will make it more or less likely they will continue grinding through those 10,000 hours. Or how circumstances (like birth date in the case of Canadian hockey players) will cause some people to be identified as talented before others, putting them on the 10,000 hours path sooner. Also lets not forget no one wants to spend 10,000 hours doing something they don’t enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/24 "2023-05-17T13:27:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Same with dating, for instance. People like to claim that “confidence is the most attractive trait a person can have” but how can any man or woman feel confident if they’re getting rejected all the time With dating it’s not so much confidence that is attractive as it is fearlessness. > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > failure didn’t bother him > [@DSeid](#): > > Knowing how to fail and to accept that failure is essential to eventual success … that is more important to have than innate skill. > [@bump](#): > > Over time, I came to realize that there wasn’t anything to fear- “failing” was just not a big deal, and nothing to internalize and beat myself up over. Being afraid of women (or men) is desperately unattractive. It’s like Mike Dimone from Fast Times told us > [@](#): > > The attitude dictates that you don’t care whether she comes, stays, lays, or prays. I mean whatever happens, your toes are still tappin’. Now when you got that, then you have the attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/25 "2023-05-17T14:26:07Z")
I basically agree with the OP. While confidence is important, it is more something you build with work and experience. An emphasis on being confident _first_ I think is the wrong way of looking at things. I’m fine with “fake it til you make it”, but pretend confidence is often cringey. I would consider this separate to advice like “Don’t start a presentation by telling the audience you aren’t very good at presentations”. _Not_ mentioning that you’re nervous, is not the same thing as faking confidence. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/26 "2023-05-17T18:01:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And people do have certain inane talents or aptitudes Most of my talents are inane. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/27 "2023-05-17T19:34:31Z")
Clearly spell-check isn’t one of mine. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/28 "2023-05-17T20:04:27Z")
I think people are conflating “being perceived as capable and confident” and “actually being confident”. That desire to be perceived as confident is IMHO a product of a consumerist modern society, in particular social media, which causes people to seek out acceptance and superficial popularity. It’s driven by a desire to be “liked” and causes people to focus on their “branding” in an attempt to appear as someone who is likable. Actually BEING confident comes from having clear purpose and goals and standards with which you hold yourself and others accountable. You do things because they are what you want to do (or they put your closer to your goal of doing what you want to do). Dating always seem to come up in these discussions. People (men usually) always want to know how to “act confident”. Well how confident can you be if you have to put on a “cool guy suit” that could slip off when you least expect it. Real confident men strive to be someone who women would want to date. They dress well (or put together at least). They pursue careers. They don’t act like douchebags. If a woman doesn’t like who they are, that’s her problem. They want the sort of woman who wants to date the sort of guy they are. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312/29 "2023-05-18T00:24:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Dating always seem to come up in these discussions. People (men usually) always want to know how to “act confident”. Well how confident can you be if you have to put on a “cool guy suit” that could slip off when you least expect it. Real confident men strive to be someone who women would want to date. They dress well (or put together at least). They pursue careers. They don’t act like douchebags. If a woman doesn’t like who they are, that’s her problem. They want the sort of woman who wants to date the sort of guy they are. I was going to mention dating but I wasn’t sure if it would be considered a hijack. I bought into the whole “be confident, women like confidence” thing for years, and probably came across as an absolute douche (I was never rude, but would have just come across as fake and “tryhard”). “Women like confidence” is one of those special categories of statements that is true yet misleading. My dating became a heck of a lot more successful when I decided: _fuck confidence_. I’m neither going to pretend to be confident nor feel sorry for myself. My best advice for dating – in fact for most social situations – is to ask people about themselves and pay enough attention to the responses that you can feed back something they said a minute ago (not only respond to their last sentence). _Everyone_ likes that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-confidence-comes-before-success-puts-the-cart-before-the-horse-and-often-starts-a-vicious-cycle/982312.md?page=1)