# IMHO: It's NOT taboo to date people who are outside of your "league" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323 "2019-05-01T14:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/81 "2019-05-02T18:34:48Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > There is no league as other people have said. My girlfriend/fiancee is less physically attractive than I am > > –\– > > She used to be really self-conscience about it until I told her I just love her for being her which is completely true. I also have a whole lot more money than she does so This is performance art, it has to be. No human being is capable of this degree of lack of self-awareness. No way no how. But keep it up, Mr. Nasty, it’s always a enjoyable time watching you debase yourself just for our entertainment. You’re nothing if not a selfless purveyor of mirth. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/82 "2019-05-02T19:08:27Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I’m probably getting the phrasing wrong. What I mean to say is she is (supposedly) better than him. Nah, you’re just not seeing the whole picture: Penny is smokin’ hot and can take her pick of the men, so she is out of dowdy little Leonard’s league. Leonard ain’t much to look at, but apart from some abuse-related self esteem issues therein rests the extent of his flaws. Penny is a … she has her flaws. Leonard is out of her league. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/83 "2019-05-02T19:11:18Z")
If you think anybody is out of your league it’s because you’ve created that construct. Period. No one is putting that on you, it’s a limitation that YOU are setting/imagining/creating. I don’t think anyone is out of my league, what a strange concept to adopt! ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/84 "2019-05-02T19:53:47Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > If you think anybody is out of your league it’s because you’ve created that construct. Period. No one is putting that on you, it’s a limitation that YOU are setting/imagining/creating. > > I don’t think anyone is out of my league, what a strange concept to adopt! It’s not that strange to assume that certain types of people simply don’t consider other certain types to be dating material. It’s not necessarily snobbish or even mean – it’s just reality. I’m an overweight, not-especially-handsome guy in my mid-50s. I work among seriously attractive women in their 20s. They might like me as a coworker and even think I’m a cool person, but there’s absolutely zero chance any of them would see me as dating material (if I were even single). Not because they have anything against me or men my age – simply because they have a vast number of younger, fitter, better-looking men to choose from. They’re not just out of my league, they’re out of my galaxy. And there’s nothing wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/85 "2019-05-02T20:07:25Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Nah, you’re just not seeing the whole picture: > > Penny is smokin’ hot and can take her pick of the men, so she is out of dowdy little Leonard’s league. > > Leonard ain’t much to look at, but apart from some abuse-related self esteem issues therein rests the extent of his flaws. Penny is a … she has her flaws. Leonard is out of her league. Nah, she is clearly out of his league. Personality flaws are not considered when determining “league” ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/86 "2019-05-02T20:09:53Z")
Maybe not in YOUR game. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/87 "2019-05-02T20:17:58Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Maybe not in YOUR game. Actually I take that back. Personality flaws may make someone out of your league see you as being in a higher league than you otherwise might be. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/88 "2019-05-02T20:21:05Z")
“Gets a little lonely, folks You know what I mean? I’m looking for a woman with low self-esteem.” –Warren Zevon ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/89 "2019-05-02T20:21:38Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > “Gets a little lonely, folks > You know what I mean? > I’m looking for a woman > with low self-esteem.” > > –Warren Zevon Exactly 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/90 "2019-05-02T20:58:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But all of this is just proving the point. The guy who has a gorgeous woman lined up every night and has no reason to date a chubby girl. Guess what? He’s put himself in a different league. There are women who’d like to go out with him but can’t because he figures he can do better than them. I agree that leagues are real and that they effect your success rate. Where I disagree is that it should matter. While it’s probably not worth my time to spend all night fighting through 10 other dudes to talk to the hottest chick at the bar if she’s alone at last call there is no reason not to slide over and see if she wants to grab a coffee. I was at a bar in New Orleans where the Rice womens basketball team was parting. I wasn’t attracted to the center but we were getting on toward the end of the night so I picked her up and we had some fun. I was normally out of her league but but she took a shot and it worked out. I think the reason people in this thread get angry about the reality of leagues is they see it as putting yourself in a box and only dating people in your box which is insulting to yourself and projects your values on other people. I see it as success rate. I had nearly a 100% success rate with women over 6’ tall just by being that height they were in my league. That was me projecting on to the women a desire to date someone taller than they were in my case that made me go talk to them but if I did the same projecting and I was 5’5" then I could say they were out of my league. In reality lots of tall girls end up with short guys so the projection is stupid at least to the point where I did have a higher success rate with tall women so they were in my league. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/91 "2019-05-02T21:06:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > If you think anybody is out of your league it’s because you’ve created that construct. Period. No one is putting that on you, it’s a limitation that YOU are setting/imagining/creating. > > I don’t think anyone is out of my league, what a strange concept to adopt! Do you think your odds of getting into a relationship with some supermodel millionaire Hollywood celebrity (if you were to meet them) are the same as, say, getting into a relationship with a friendly neighbor or coworker? Nobody is saying that “out of one’s league” means “absolutely impossible” - they are just stating the reality, which is the odds are considerably lower, due to a mismatch of personal attributes and circumstances. It’s like asking whether a football fan has a better chance of making it onto the roster of a local amateur football league, or getting signed by an NFL team. Nobody is saying that the latter is impossible, just that it’s much less likely. Why do people have to be so pedantic about this? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/92 "2019-05-02T21:13:58Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I didn’t say you should try to date Jennifer Lawrence. I said that the reasons that you shouldn’t have nothing to do with “tiers.” > > I did do my best to point out, as others have in this thread, that not everyone has the same “dream prize”. > > And women are not prizes, in any case. > > Why should any woman take up with you, if you think she’s essentially inferior, and you’re only settling for her because you want to have a “prize” and don’t think you can get a better one? Lighten up, Francis. I’ve repeatedly made the point that women have their own agency in a dating relationship, just like men do. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/93 "2019-05-02T21:29:07Z")
“Francis”? Am I missing some board shorthand, here? I’ve no idea what that’s supposed to mean. And I don’t think you’ve answered my question; though of course you don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/94 "2019-05-02T21:42:28Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > “Francis”? > > Am I missing some board shorthand, here? I’ve no idea what that’s supposed to mean. Not a Bill Murray fan, huh? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And I don’t think you’ve answered my question; though of course you don’t have to. I thought I had. But I’ll go in detail. I understand the concept that you were describing; how some men only see women as prizes to be won. Men like this don’t see women as having any agency. In their view, men are the ones who seek out women. Women are just the passive objects of male attention. The real world doesn’t work that way. Women are seeking out men just as actively as men are seeking out women (or men seeking out men or women seeking out women). The idea that you should aim high and try to date a woman who is outside of your league ignores this reality. There are obvious reasons why a man would want to date a woman who’s significantly more attractive. But the unanswered question is why that woman would want to date a man who, by definition, is significantly less attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/95 "2019-05-02T21:46:01Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > If you think anybody is out of your league it’s because you’ve created that construct. Period. No one is putting that on you, it’s a limitation that YOU are setting/imagining/creating. > > I don’t think anyone is out of my league, what a strange concept to adopt! That’s half of it. But the other half is not under your control. Are there other people who think they’re out of your league? Because it doesn’t matter if you think you’re good enough to date Jennifer Lawrence if Jennifer Lawrence doesn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/96 "2019-05-02T21:48:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Nah, she is clearly out of his league. Personality flaws are not considered when determining “league” I don’t agree. There are lots of physically attractive people who can’t form a steady relationship because they have personality problems. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/97 "2019-05-02T22:03:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not a Bill Murray fan, huh? Having found 50 seconds worth of relevant clip on Youtube with the aid of that hint, no, not particularly. (And I’m certainly not flattered by the comparison.) Maybe if I’d watched the whole thing it was taken from I’d have a different opinion (of Murray’s work, not of the comparison; I don’t think I was behaving like Francis). It’s generally safer to assume that I haven’t watched something than that I have. I’m not expecting you to keep track of that bit of info, of course. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > the unanswered question is why that woman would want to date a man who, by definition, is significantly less attractive. By whose definition? You keep missing the entire point that _not everybody has the same definition of attractive_. Either physically, or overall. ETA: try aiming at a particular person. Not at an invented category. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/98 "2019-05-02T22:06:53Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You keep missing the entire point that _not everybody has the same definition of attractive_. Either physically, or overall. Yes, no rule is absolute, but generalities still apply. By and large, women prefer men with wealth, status, success, height, confidence, humor, etc. and men prefer women of youth, a good figure, a conventionally beautiful face, a nice disposition, etc. There are always exceptions (maybe some woman just has a thing for homeless broke 4-feet midget dwarves or some man likes morbidly obese ladies), but the general rule still holds true. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/99 "2019-05-02T22:13:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > …uh, what exactly? \*\* Little Nemo\*\*'s statement was spot on, Jennifer Lawrence would probably reject every and any male Doper poster, and for good reason - she has better options (even if she were single and didn’t have a fiance right now). If you don’t agree with the term “out of league,” then what term should be used instead? The concept is real, true, and exists. When I see a couple and one is way out of the other’s league I tend to assume one of them has money, an amazing personality or serious self esteem problems. Its been fairly accurate. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/100 "2019-05-02T22:26:39Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You keep missing the entire point that _not everybody has the same definition of attractive_. Either physically, or overall. Nope, they sure don’t. But back when I posted this, > [@](#): > > The people I’ve seen it said to are those who are maybe a 5 who are only interested in 10s , complain that they are alone and when you say “so and so is interesting/fun , why don’t you ask her out?” Mr 5 then says “She’s not pretty enough”. Now, looks aren’t everything, but I’ve noticed that the men I’ve known in this situation, the 5s who want to date 10s ,don’t really have anything going for them. They’re “meh” all the way around. They aren’t really funny or interesting or successful or anything. the people I was talking about didn’t have anything particularly attractive about them. They weren’t particularly good- looking, wealthy, athletic, fun to be around, interesting, successful, funny. Nothing- like I said “meh” all the way around. No matter what the other party was looking for, this person was average at best. > [@](#): > > And the reality is that although a 10 in looks might date a 5 in looks, that 5 is probably a 9 or 10 in some other area. This is where different definitions of attractive come in. It is not terribly uncommon to see a young, beautiful person involved with an older, not- so- good- looking person who is wealthy and powerful. Because they each are a 10 in different areas. What you don’t often see is a young ,beautiful person with an older, not- so-good-looking person who can barely pay the rent , lives a boring life and has no personality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323.md?page=6)