# "Immaculate conception" and "Virgin birth" are not the same \*&^%$%&(\*# thing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 31, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029 "2005-03-31T01:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/1 "2005-03-31T01:25:00Z")
This has gone beyond a peeve for me and well into rage-inducing territory. The Immaculate Conception refers to the birth of Mary who was without Original Sin. The Virgin Birth refers to the birth of Mary who was, obviously, a virgin. I don’t expect people to have a grasp of the finer points of RCC theology. I don’t. But three seconds of Googling is all it takes to find the definitions of these phrases. And you, you writers of “Lost,” have no freaking excuse. GAH! ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/2 "2005-03-31T01:31:55Z")
Don’t even need Google, most standard dictionaries give the proper definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/3 "2005-03-31T01:36:37Z")
Well, erm, except for one minor flaw in your definition: “Virgin Birth” refers to the birth of **Jesus** while his mother was still a virgin. (And remained perpetually so, according to the Orthodox and Catholics, but that’s a distinct doctrine; the VB itself only requires that she have remained a virgin up until his birth.) Note that the Immaculate Conception refers totally to the Catholic doctrine of original sin transmitted through conception; it’s the presumption that Sts. Joachim and Anna conceived Mary through the normal process (and, one hopes, had fun doing it!). ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/4 "2005-03-31T01:37:35Z")
Why do you think the writers of “Lost” don’t understand the distinction? The line was delivered by a woman who was clearly batshit insane. People who are batshit insane shouldn’t be expected to deliver accurate exposition of Catholic theology. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/5 "2005-03-31T01:39:18Z")
Or, it might just have been a case of [parthenogenesis](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0925_020925_virginshark.html). ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/6 "2005-03-31T01:45:38Z")
Not every Christian believes in the Immaculate Conception as conceptualized by the RCC. It’s an interesting explanation for why Jesus was/is supposedly 100% completely blameless. But it’s not the only explanation out there. I was taught that the VB and IC were one in the same, and just found out the difference a year ago. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/7 "2005-03-31T02:04:11Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Well, erm, except for one minor flaw in your definition: I hate Gaudere and that stinking law! HATE! ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/8 "2005-03-31T02:14:14Z")
Ok I’m a theological moron/illiterate. And frankly the Gauderian interference in the OP didn’t help. Upshot - I have no clue what the freak you’re talking about. I don’t even see why it even _matters_ to anyone what the distinction is. Isn’t the one just the result of the other? Maybe if you could just restate the OP and maybe explain how Lost screwed it up it’d make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/9 "2005-03-31T02:59:19Z")
In RCC theology, everyone is born with Original Sin (thank you Adam, Eve, and the apple). But Mary, Jesus’s mom, was born without Original Sin: that’s the Immaculate Conception – she was conceived without the stain of Original Sin on her soul. Then Mary gets pregnant with Jesus, but since she didn’t have sex (thank you God and the Angel Gabriel), that’s the Virgin Birth: Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. So the one isn’t the result of the other, really. Although the reason she was born without Original Sin was so that she could be Jesus’s mom. So they’re related, but not causally. If that helps, I will finally have gotten a use for all that Catholic school and CCD. Other than learning all the words to “Do They Know It’s Christmas?”, which I don’t really know why we had to learn those. But **jsgoddess** , that makes me crazy too. And it’s too early for Lost out here, so I don’t know who messed that up. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/10 "2005-03-31T03:03:49Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I hate Gaudere and that stinking law! HATE! Well, “This is the place for all complaints and other discussion regarding administration of the SDMB.” (from the BBQ Pit forum description) ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/11 "2005-03-31T03:27:01Z")
Oh. Really? Wow. Consider ignorance fought. Thanks, Campion. So now I know what everyone was learning in CCD. So…if the immaculate conception is Mary’s conception. Then what happened? Was she conceived like Jesus? Or did her parents have sex? Was it immaculate sex? I feel like I’m asking about the birds and the bees here. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/12 "2005-03-31T03:30:55Z")
**"Immaculate conception" and “Virgin birth” are not the same _&^%$%&(_# thing** The latter one, in fact, is not at all a _&^%%&(\*# thing, in fact it definitely \*precludes\* any \*&^%%&(_# going on… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/13 "2005-03-31T03:36:00Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Oh. Really? Wow. Consider ignorance fought. Thanks, Campion. So now I know what everyone was learning in CCD. > > So…if the immaculate conception is Mary’s conception. Then what happened? Was she conceived like Jesus? Or did her parents have sex? Was it immaculate sex? > > I feel like I’m asking about the birds and the bees here. See above. St. Joachim laid St. Anne, in the normal manner (well, we assume; perhaps they did it on donkeyback or something!). However, according to Catholic theology, in order to provide a pristine vessel in which the Christ might be conceived and born, by special intervention of the Holy Spirit the taint of original sin was kept away from the conceptus that would grow up to become the Blessed Virgin Mary. That’s the Immaculate Conception. And it’s exclusively a Catholic doctrine. The Virgin Birth, on the other hand, is based in the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, both of which say that Joseph and Mary did **not** get it on, and that Mary conceived “being overshadowed by the power of the Holy Spirit.” It’s a standard belief held to by almost all major denominations, Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, or Protestant. (Although many individual Christians don’t necessarily buy it.) Connected with this is the idea that Mary **never** had sex: the Perpetual Virginity. This is a Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, held to by only a few Protestants. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/14 "2005-03-31T03:41:19Z")
Anyone care to start a tangent about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/15 "2005-03-31T04:02:43Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > Anyone care to start a tangent about Mary Magdalene being a prostitute? No, but I’m still trying to come up with a football joke. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/16 "2005-03-31T04:14:49Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > See above. St. Joachim laid St. Anne, in the normal manner (well, we assume; perhaps they did it on donkeyback or something!). Wait, so Mary’s _parents_ are also saints? Is this just the best example of coattail-riding in history, or are they also supposed to have performed saintly acts of some sort? ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/17 "2005-03-31T04:21:07Z")
And thank you, **Polycarp**. It’s always fun to learn things you didn’t know you didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/18 "2005-03-31T04:23:29Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Wait, so Mary’s _parents_ are also saints? Is this just the best example of coattail-riding in history, or are they also supposed to have performed saintly acts of some sort? Immaculate sex is not enough for you? I’d like to see \*you \* try it. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/19 "2005-03-31T04:24:57Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Wait, so Mary’s _parents_ are also saints? Is this just the best example of coattail-riding in history, or are they also supposed to have performed saintly acts of some sort? Well, they _were_ the parents of The Blessed Virgin and all. Being the grandparents of the Savior help in the election. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/20 "2005-03-31T04:29:03Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Well, they _were_ the parents of The Blessed Virgin and all. Being the grandparents of the Savior help in the election. sings “It’s a Family Affair” 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029.md?page=2)