# "Immaculate conception" and "Virgin birth" are not the same \*&^%$%&(\*# thing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 31, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029 "2005-03-31T01:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/21 "2005-03-31T04:52:03Z")
Wow, so does this cause any tension or resentment among the other saints? I mean, if you spent your life abstaining from sex, giving away all your possessions, scourging your flesh and healing the sick with the power of your touch until your death by slow torture, wouldn’t you be a bit pissed to see some ordinary schlubs who did jack shit living the good afterlife just because of family connections? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/22 "2005-03-31T05:04:45Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Wow, so does this cause any tension or resentment among the other saints? I mean, if you spent your life abstaining from sex, giving away all your possessions, scourging your flesh and healing the sick with the power of your touch until your death by slow torture, wouldn’t you be a bit pissed to see some ordinary schlubs who did jack shit living the good afterlife just because of family connections? What’s the old joke? Oh yeah. “Can you imagine being Jesus’ brother? The pressure of being compared to Him?!?” ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/23 "2005-03-31T05:20:12Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Ok I’m a theological moron/illiterate. And frankly the Gauderian interference in the OP didn’t help. Upshot - I have no clue what the freak you’re talking about. I don’t even see why it even _matters_ to anyone what the distinction is. It matters in the sense that \*immaculate conception \* is a theological term with a very precise meaning. When it’s misused (as it very often is) it immediately undermines the credibility of the one who misused it. > [@Polycarp](#): > > That’s the Immaculate Conception. And it’s exclusively a Catholic doctrine. I know many “high” Anglicans who also believe this doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Dancer\_Flight](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dancer_flight/32/7601_2.png) [@Dancer\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancer_Flight)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/24 "2005-03-31T05:57:12Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > What’s the old joke? Oh yeah. > > “Can you imagine being Jesus’ brother? The pressure of being compared to Him?!?” I think James did alright… -DF ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/25 "2005-03-31T06:21:34Z")
Just curious, since I can’t find it via my google fu, but does anybody know who first said “Immaculate conception maculates conception.” ? ---
**Author:** ![Weaver\_of\_Nightmares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/73ab20/32.png) [@Weaver\_of\_Nightmares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weaver_of_Nightmares)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/26 "2005-03-31T10:46:36Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Connected with this is the idea that Mary **never** had sex: the Perpetual Virginity. This is a Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, held to by only a few Protestants. Wouldn’t say so. Without Original Sin equals being without a functional sex-drive? Not likely. Joseph most likely would have had one 😛 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/27 "2005-03-31T18:10:56Z")
A few years ago snopes did a page on this. You would not believe the hate mail he received for it. The average response was along the lines of > [@](#): > > YOU, R GOING TOO HEL!, yOO SAY THEIRS KNOW VIRGIN BERTH BUT!!! YOU BETTOR BELEEV THAT JESUS IS yUOR LORD!!! AND MASTR, BETTOR START PRAYING NOW U HETHUN, AND EXCEPT JESUS IN TO YOR SOLE BE4 U BURN FOREVAR!!! ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/28 "2005-03-31T18:18:04Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > No, but I’m still trying to come up with a football joke. That was my first thought. “Also, the immaculate reception was not a Hail Mary.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/29 "2005-03-31T20:02:14Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Connected with this is the idea that Mary **never** had sex: the Perpetual Virginity. This is a Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, held to by only a few Protestants. And requiring some fancy foot-stepping around the mention of Jesus’ brothers and sisters in the New Testament. (Matthew 13:54-58, John 2:11-12, John 7:3-5, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/30 "2005-03-31T21:11:15Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > That was my first thought. “Also, the immaculate reception was not a Hail Mary.” C’mon, Manny, the whole Virgin Birth idea is based on the reported fact that St. Joseph never completed a pass! ---
**Author:** ![Iacob\_Matthew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Iacob\_Matthew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iacob_Matthew)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/31 "2005-04-01T00:52:30Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > So…if the immaculate conception is Mary’s conception. Then what happened? Was she conceived like Jesus? Or did her parents have sex? Was it immaculate sex? Is it still a sin if you lubricate with Chrism? ---
**Author:** ![Faruiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/32 "2005-04-01T01:06:28Z")
“Can you imagine being Jesus’ brother? The pressure of being compared to Him?!?” [/QUOTE] [Well, somebody wrote a song about it. Would you like to hear it? Here it go!](http://arrogant-worms.lyrics-songs.com/lyrics/2237/) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/33 "2005-04-01T14:16:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > C’mon, Manny, the whole Virgin Birth idea is based on the reported fact that St. Joseph never completed a pass! Well, sure. It would be another almost 2000 years before [the Lord started helping people complete passes](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/9) and even then he didn’t waste the miracle on something as pedestrian as sex. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/34 "2005-04-03T17:15:26Z")
> [@Weaver of Nightmares](#): > > Wouldn’t say so. Without Original Sin equals being without a functional sex-drive? Nobody says that. Just (some specific churches) that she is _aeiparthenos_, “ever-virgin”. The Churches that teach that teach that the “brothers” mentioned in the Gospel are close kin (cousins) foster-raised in the same household, or pre-Mary children of Joseph. ---
**Author:** ![Weaver\_of\_Nightmares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/73ab20/32.png) [@Weaver\_of\_Nightmares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weaver_of_Nightmares)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/35 "2005-04-03T17:40:12Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Nobody says that. Just (some specific churches) that she is _aeiparthenos_, “ever-virgin”. The Churches that teach that teach that the “brothers” mentioned in the Gospel are close kin (cousins) foster-raised in the same household, or pre-Mary children of Joseph. Sorry, I could have been clearer. I didn’t mean that anybody here said that. Just that I don’t agree with the Church on that. (For the record, I’m not Catholic, so I doubt the Church’d be impressed :p) Though I have the feeling that the RCC is not the only one that thinks that way about Mary. I’m fairly certain my SO does, and he’s Protestant. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/36 "2005-04-03T17:54:28Z")
Just for the record, when I was commenting on “who believes X” about the different doctrines above, I was referring to _churches’ official statements of belief_, not to what Joe Catholic, Pete Protestant, or Oleg Orthodox might happen to themselves believe. I.e., Catholicism teaches the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity; Lutheranism does not. But it doesn’t automatically mean that Officer O’Malley is convinced of them and Sven Svensson is not. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/37 "2005-04-04T04:06:06Z")
…and as I have mentioned in some prior threads, my personal heresy on this issue goes along the lines of, since (a) the condition of _aeiparthenos_ is taught to mean that through miraculous workings, neither conception, nor pregancy, nor even labor and delivery itself affected her virginal state; (b) it is also taught that "virginity"is not just a physical, but a mental/spiritual state of being, i.e. crudely put, you can be “virginal” w/o a hymen and a slut with one; © Joseph and Mary were lawfully wedded spouses therefore carnal contact between them would not only be unsinful, but would actually be a _holy_ act; then (D)(the Delirious Heresy) it would be a cakewalk for God to have Mary miraculously remain “virginal” in the transcendent sense, and unsullied even through a normal marital life with Joseph. BTW, in more mundane terms: The Church does indeed insist very vehemently is that there is NOBODY who can claim direct or even close-to-it blood-descent from the Joseph/Mary/Jesus family unit (_vide,_ a particular best-selling recent novel); that particular (alleged) Davidic bloodline would have dead-ended c. 30AD, according to the RCC. Think about it, through most of the last 2K years, anyone who could reasonably claim such descent would “reasonably” be a pretender to Absolute King of All Humanity, and we can’t have that, can we…? ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/38 "2005-04-04T04:30:45Z")
[Totally irrelevant hijack. Don’t kill me] Did you know that there’s a book called _The Va Vinci Cod_ coming out? It’s about a famous museum curator found dead with a three-foot codfish stuffed down his throat. I am _not_ making this up. I’m sorry. I had to tell somebody. [end horrendous hijack] According to the Catechism, Mary’s Immaculate Conception, and therefore sinlessness, was necessary for her to assent to God’s will. She was borne by grace and preserved from sin so that she was able to give her whole self freely. Section 494, Catechism of the Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/39 "2005-04-04T05:12:19Z")
> [@Lissla Lissar](#): > > [Totally irrelevant hijack. Don’t kill me] > Did you know that there’s a book called _The Va Vinci Cod_ coming out? It’s about a famous museum curator found dead with a three-foot codfish stuffed down his throat. I am _not_ making this up. **Lissa**. I mean this in the most dopely manner. You are my new bestest friend. On to the Hijack: **Dial F for Fish.** ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029/40 "2005-04-04T05:15:12Z")
> [@Lissla Lissar](#): > > [Totally irrelevant hijack. Don’t kill me] > Did you know that there’s a book called _The Va Vinci Cod_ coming out? It’s about a famous museum curator found dead with a three-foot codfish stuffed down his throat. I am _not_ making this up. It’s not my plaice to say this, but anyone who would perpetrate that should look to saving his sole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immaculate-conception-and-virgin-birth-are-not-the-same-thing/297029.md?page=3)