# "\[Immigrants\] breed like rabbits" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 25, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483 "2019-05-25T00:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/41 "2019-05-29T16:56:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Is this ATMB or the Pit? Are you a real moderator, or just a junior one? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/42 "2019-05-29T18:33:22Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … He’s a nazi… > > …Shows more charity to a racist, fascist shitbag… > > …What, did he borrow **HurricaneDitka** ’s warning-proof troll shield? I know you are upset about this issue, and since this is ATMB and you are trying to get something resolved, I am going to cut you some slack. But you have definitely been around here long enough to know that insults and accusations of trolling are both warnable offenses. You know where the Pit is if you need to vent. Dial it way back, please. > [@octopus](#): > > Is this ATMB or the Pit? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you a real moderator, or just a junior one? Let’s leave all of the moderating to the real moderators, please. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/43 "2019-05-29T19:00:50Z")
**Moderator Warning** We have had a discussion about this in the Mod Loop, and upon further consideration, I have decided to upgrade the Mod Note to a Warning. I try to be lenient in ATMB so that people can feel free to discuss things, even if they are pissed off. But in this case, the insults and accusations of trolling, both against the new poster and against **HurricaneDitka** , are just too over-the-top. This is an Official Warning for insults and accusations of trolling outside of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/44 "2019-05-29T19:39:24Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Warning** > > We have had a discussion about this in the Mod Loop, and upon further consideration, I have decided to upgrade the Mod Note to a Warning. On the one hand, I agree that BPC’s behavior deserved a warning, setting aside any discussion of the validity of what he said. On the other hand, the venomous racist language in the OP still stands unwarned. Priorities be jacked. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/45 "2019-05-29T19:59:36Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Warning** > > We have had a discussion about this in the Mod Loop, and upon further consideration, I have decided to upgrade the Mod Note to a Warning. > > I try to be lenient in ATMB so that people can feel free to discuss things, even if they are pissed off. But in this case, the insults and accusations of trolling, both against the new poster and against **HurricaneDitka** , are just too over-the-top. > > This is an Official Warning for insults and accusations of trolling outside of the Pit. Not a big fan of upgrading notes to warnings. Not **BPC** ’s and not **Malaclypse the elder** ’s. Instead, a word to the wise should be sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/46 "2019-05-29T20:00:41Z")
To both MrDibble and LHoD: the passage quoted in the OP is not racist. For it to be racist it would require us believing that immigrants are all of an ethnicity different from that of the person who was quoted. Immigrants are wildly diverse, the only thing we have in common is that we moved somewhere different, and did so to stay. So, find an accurate description for that which you find objectionable in that passage. I have suggested some terms in earlier posts. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/47 "2019-05-29T20:17:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On the one hand, I agree that BPC’s behavior deserved a warning, setting aside any discussion of the validity of what he said. > > On the other hand, the venomous racist language in the OP still stands unwarned. > > Priorities be jacked. Your statement about our priorities being jacked is comparing apples to oranges. The poster in question that you want to see warned is a newbie. While their posts were potentially warnable, the moderators in this case chose not to issue a warning, for reasons that have already been explained in this thread. If we feel that we can change behavior without a warning, that is an option that is available to all of us moderators. We aren’t required to issue a warning in every possible case. BPC on the other hand is not a newbie, and has a history of Pit-style behavior outside of the Pit, where it is not acceptable. He has made Pit-type comments in ATMB before and was not warned for them, but at some point, if you continue unacceptable behavior, it becomes clear that mod notes aren’t cutting it and that anything short of a warning isn’t going to be effective. It’s nowhere near the same situation. > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Not a big fan of upgrading notes to warnings. Not **BPC** ’s and not **Malaclypse the elder** ’s. Instead, a word to the wise should be sufficient. I’m not a big fan of it either. Don’t expect me to do it very often. The main reason for it in this case was that a word to the wise hasn’t been sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/48 "2019-05-29T20:31:54Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > To both MrDibble and LHoD: the passage quoted in the OP is not racist. For it to be racist it would require us believing that immigrants are all of an ethnicity different from that of the person who was quoted. This is incorrect. One simply need notice that the poster in question is extra-concerned about thinking that “our way of life” is not compatible with that of other races, and seems to be focusing on immigrants who are not of European background. Racists aren’t computer programs, bound to a strict logic, and you can’t P=!P your way out of recognizing their racist claims. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Your statement about our priorities being jacked is comparing apples to oranges. In the sense that BPC adds content to the board that at least leads to productive debate, whereas virulent racists drive people away, yes, it’s comparing oranges to rotten apples. I understand the distinction you’re drawing. The ultimate purpose of any warning or ban, however, ought to be to make the board a better place. It’s apples-to-apples to look at your reactions. Thinking that someone like Malaclypse is going to be gently nudged into not making virulently racist posts is not reasonable. Instead, tolerating him here is going to gently nudge other folks into leaving the board for places where virulent racism isn’t tolerated. If that’s what you want to do, or even something you’re comfortable with, you’re making the right call. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The poster in question that you want to see warned is a newbie. To be perfectly clear, I don’t want him warned. I want folks who post stuff like this insta-banned, because they make the board worse and drive away good posters. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/49 "2019-05-29T20:51:11Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I’m not a big fan of it either. Don’t expect me to do it very often. > > The main reason for it in this case was that a word to the wise hasn’t been sufficient. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/50 "2019-05-29T21:00:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is incorrect. One simply need notice that the poster in question is extra-concerned about thinking that “our way of life” is not compatible with that of other races, and seems to be focusing on immigrants who are not of European background. > > Racists aren’t computer programs, bound to a strict logic, and you can’t P=!P your way out of recognizing their racist claims. > > In the sense that BPC adds content to the board that at least leads to productive debate, whereas virulent racists drive people away, yes, it’s comparing oranges to rotten apples. > > I understand the distinction you’re drawing. The ultimate purpose of any warning or ban, however, ought to be to make the board a better place. It’s apples-to-apples to look at your reactions. > > Thinking that someone like Malaclypse is going to be gently nudged into not making virulently racist posts is not reasonable. Instead, tolerating him here is going to gently nudge other folks into leaving the board for places where virulent racism isn’t tolerated. > > If that’s what you want to do, or even something you’re comfortable with, you’re making the right call. > > To be perfectly clear, I don’t want him warned. I want folks who post stuff like this insta-banned, because they make the board worse and drive away good posters. Any debate about immigration that includes a position that advocates any limit is going to contain language that some will label or perceive as racist, xenophobic, or some other phobic. The question will be to what degree. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/51 "2019-05-29T22:12:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is incorrect. One simply need notice that the poster in question is extra-concerned about thinking that “our way of life” is not compatible with that of other races, and seems to be focusing on immigrants who are not of European background. > > Racists aren’t computer programs, bound to a strict logic, and you can’t P=!P your way out of recognizing their racist claims. So it’s racist because you, taking the totality of the posters concerns and how they _seem_ to you into consideration, say it is. And want to instaban for it. That is immensely disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/52 "2019-05-29T22:21:28Z")
Back to the OP topic, though: Is, or should the policy of the Straight Dope be that one should be allowed to say offensive things as long as they are worded in a polite and academic-sounding way, or that offensive speech should not be permitted, period? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/53 "2019-05-29T22:21:41Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > So it’s racist because you, taking the totality of the posters concerns and how they _seem_ to you into consideration, say it is. And want to instaban for it. That is immensely disturbing. You’re not as disturbed by someone talking about immigrants breeding like rabbits as you are by someone reading someone’s posts and drawing inferences. Okey dokey. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/54 "2019-05-29T23:16:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re not as disturbed by someone talking about immigrants breeding like rabbits as you are by someone reading someone’s posts and drawing inferences. Okey dokey. I’ve made very few comments about that guy, but all of those were negative. I must therefore further doubt your abilities to draw inferences, and feel even stronger that we should not now or ever instaban based on your what you think stuff means. Again, (and I state this outright so you do not need to infer) my point is that negative comments about immigrants, unless further specified, are not automatically racist. They are other things, all ugly. But not racist. Racism has a specific meaning. Calling other, not-actually-racist things, racist, dilutes that meaning. So does banning someone for racism when the statement wasn’t, well, actually racist. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/55 "2019-05-29T23:26:24Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Again, (and I state this outright so you do not need to infer) my point is that negative comments about immigrants, unless further specified, are not automatically racist. They are other things, all ugly. But not racist. Racism has a specific meaning. Calling other, not-actually-racist things, racist, dilutes that meaning. So does banning someone for racism when the statement wasn’t, well, actually racist. You’ve made your point crystal clear. I believe it’s both self-evidently incorrect and self-evidently a bit of distracting pedantry, and base my claims that this dude should be insta-banned on that. My hope is that this board’s administration isn’t swayed by penny-ante bickering over what precisely comprises racism and can focus on the larger point that allowing virulent bigotry, whether you call it “racist” or “xenophobic” or whatever term satisfies your pedantic requirements, makes the board worse. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/56 "2019-05-29T23:39:33Z")
No, you, or anyone, getting to call it, because you know it when you see it, and the board insta-banning anyone on the basis of that. That would make the board worse. So very much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/57 "2019-05-30T01:06:21Z")
I just want to say that “[they] breed like rabbits” would have been a correct observation about both white, European, Christian sides of my family after (and even before) they arrived in the USA. There’s a lot worse on this board to get a lot angrier about. Frankly, the comment didn’t tick my liberal button. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/58 "2019-05-30T03:42:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which is a nice theory, but doesn’t work. Allowing such rhetoric normalizes and spreads it, no matter how much effort is put into fighting it. Allowing it to be debated it puts it into the socially acceptable category of “things a reasonable person can debate over”. That’s one perspective. I have a different one. Isn’t it good we can air our differences openly? I’ll let two great men speak for me. First, Justice Robert Jackson, in his majority opinion _W. Virginia v. Barnette:_ > [@](#): > > Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good, as well as by evil, men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon, but, at other times and places, the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an ever-increasing severity.[…] > > Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies.[…] > > We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes.[…] > > [F]reedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. Next, several quotes from John Stuart Mill, the great British nineteenth century philosopher (emphases mine): > [@](#): > > Every man who says frankly and fully what he thinks is so far doing a public service. _We should be grateful to him for attacking most unsparingly our most cherished opinions._ > [@](#): > > He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side; if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion. The rational position for him would be suspension of judgment, and unless he contents himself with that, he is either led by authority, or adopts, like the generality of the world, the side to which he feels most inclination. Nor is it enough that he should hear the arguments of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. That is not the way to do justice to the arguments, or bring them into real contact with his own mind. _He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them; who defend them in earnest, and do their very utmost for them. He must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form;_ he must feel the whole force of the difficulty which the true view of the subject has to encounter and dispose of; else he will never really possess himself of the portion of truth which meets and removes that difficulty. > [@](#): > > We often hear the teachers of all creeds lamenting the difficulty of keeping up in the minds of believers a lively apprehension of the truth which they nominally recognise, so that it may penetrate the feelings, and acquire a real mastery over the conduct. No such difficulty is complained of while the creed is still fighting for its existence: even the weaker combatants then know and feel what they are fighting for, and the difference between it and other doctrines…But when it has come to be an hereditary creed, and to be received passively, not actively—when the mind is no longer compelled, in the same degree as at first, to exercise its vital powers on the questions which its belief presents to it,\* there is a progressive tendency to forget all of the belief except the formularies, or to give it a dull and torpid assent, as if accepting it on trust dispensed with the necessity of realizing it in consciousness\*, or testing it by personal experience; until it almost ceases to connect itself at all with the inner life of the human being. > [@](#): > > I deny the right of the people to exercise such coercion, _either by themselves_ or by their government. _The power itself is illegitimate._ The best government has no more title to it than the worst. It is as noxious, or more noxious, when exerted in accordance with public opinion, than when in opposition to it. If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. Were an opinion a personal possession of no value except to the owner; if to be obstructed in the enjoyment of it were simply a private injury, it would make some difference whether the injury was inflicted only on a few persons or on many. But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. _If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error._ > [@](#): > > Strange it is, that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being “pushed to an extreme;” not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case. Strange that they should imagine that they are not assuming infallibility, when they acknowledge that there should be free discussion on all subjects which can possibly be doubtful, but think that some particular principle or doctrine should be forbidden to be questioned because it is so certain, that is, because they are certain that it is certain. _To call any proposition certain, while there is any one who would deny its certainty if permitted, but who is not permitted, is to assume that we ourselves, and those who agree with us, are the judges of certainty, and judges without hearing the other side._ ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/59 "2019-05-30T04:27:12Z")
N/m ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/60 "2019-05-30T04:33:52Z")
I may be confused, but I thought that racist arguments/debates were permitted on the SDMB. I know that hate speech is banned, but I genuinely thought that we could have a debate about racism, with my hope that is vanishing, that the debate would be a logical and point by point refutation of that horrible belief. So, my thought was that topics such as “Why are blacks dumber than whites?” or “Why do blacks commit more crimes than whites?” or “Why do Muslims support terrorism?” and threads of similar distasteful topics were permitted so long as the tone or words used didn’t involve hate speech (e.g. “Why are niggers dumber than whites”? = warnable offense). I stand to be corrected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483.md?page=4)