# "\[Immigrants\] breed like rabbits" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 25, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483 "2019-05-25T00:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/61 "2019-05-30T10:20:20Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > For it to be racist it would require us believing that immigrants are all of an ethnicity different from that of the person who was quoted. No. For it not to be a racist statement, would require me to believe racists are capable of logic and nuance. But hey, call it chauvinism if you prefer. Or ultra-nationalism. But by all means, continue defending, albeit indirectly, the person calling entire classes of fellow human beings animals, based on where they were born. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Next, several quotes from John Stuart Mill, the great British nineteenth century philosopher (emphases mine): Why should we care what the words of a racist colonialist are, nearly 2 centuries later? Mills was a hypocrite - Free speech and liberty, but not for the Indians his company was murdering in their millions. What was it he said, again? > [@Some Racist Scot](#): > > Despotism is a legitimate mode of government in dealing with barbarians provided that the end be their improvement and the means justified by actually effecting that end. Next time you want to bombard someone with Mill quotes, lead with that one. > [@UltraVires](#): > > I know that hate speech is banned […] > So, my thought was that topics such as “ **Why are blacks dumber than whites**?” […] were permitted so long as the tone or words used didn’t involve hate speech. No, apparently hate speech is just fine, since you managed to include a sample right there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/62 "2019-05-30T12:26:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Next time you want to bombard someone with Mill quotes, lead with that one. Is it your contention that “barbarians” are necessarily one race, and not another? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/63 "2019-05-30T12:34:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is it your contention that “barbarians” are necessarily one race, and not another? The ones Mill was talking about certainly were. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/64 "2019-05-30T12:50:06Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is it your contention that “barbarians” are necessarily one race, and not another? Mill is essentially talking about the victims of the East India Company, there, as he’s colonizer-splaining why “On Liberty” only applies to some human beings, and not all of them. So yes, he means brown people.No, he doesn’t come out and say it. He does not have to. Everyone knew what he meant by “backward states of society in which the race itself may be considered as in its nonage”, and it wasn’t the French. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/65 "2019-05-30T12:57:19Z")
Although yeah, if you want to be pedantic, I’m sure he’d also consider red and yellow people to be “barbarians” too. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/66 "2019-05-30T13:26:07Z")
Ad hominem up the wazoo. Utter refusal to engage with the ideas. Weak. I feel like this place used to be more intellectual. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/67 "2019-05-30T13:47:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Ad hominem up the wazoo. Pointing out hypocrisy inherent in someone’s contradictory published statements isn’t an _ad hominem_. It’s \*literally \*attacking the man’s ideas, not the man. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/68 "2019-05-30T18:03:13Z")
Pointing out the hypocrisy of the man and other ideas he expressed does not address the merits of the first idea expressed. It shows a fallible human held that idea, not that the idea has a weakness. A loophole of “_They_ don’t count” is an argument to be had against Mill for his ideas, not someone who doesn’t hold to that caveat. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/69 "2019-05-30T18:14:54Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Pointing out the hypocrisy of the man and other ideas he expressed does not address the merits of the first idea expressed. It shows a fallible human held that idea, not that the idea has a weakness. > > A loophole of “_They_ don’t count” is an argument to be had against Mill for his ideas, not someone who doesn’t hold to that caveat. I fail to understand why **SlackerInc** specifically highlighted the quotes as coming from the “great John Stuart Mill” except to give them added weight by attributing them to someone respected. If SlackerInc simply wanted to argue the points, there’s no need to quote someone else. So his argument was an appeal to authority, in which case questioning the credentials of the person is perfectly acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/70 "2019-05-30T19:33:07Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Pointing out the hypocrisy of the man and other ideas he expressed does not address the merits of the first idea expressed. The “other ideas” relate directly to the first idea - Mill is specifically saying that everything he says about liberty doesn’t apply to lesser races. If his “liberty” is conditional in that way, then it’s bunk. “Free speech … for White people” is not free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/71 "2019-05-30T19:41:28Z")
Mill is at best making a persuasive argument for no government interference in odious speech. I am nearly certain that if a drunk asshole barged into Mill’s favorite gentleman’s club and started screaming that Harriet Taylor was a whore, and worse imprecations, Mill would not have responded, “Sir, I am grateful to you for attacking most unsparingly my most cherished opinion! Do please continue!” Had the club manager thrown the asshole out, Mill would not have objected. When someone comes into the SDMB and interrupts a measured conversation about Brexit with racist shit comparing immigrants to vermin and talking about how “our” way of life is incompatible with the way of life of other races, they’re calling Harriet Taylor a whore. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/72 "2019-05-30T19:54:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Mill is at best making a persuasive argument for no government interference in odious speech. I am nearly certain that if a drunk asshole barged into Mill’s favorite gentleman’s club and started screaming that Harriet Taylor was a whore, and worse imprecations, Mill would not have responded, “Sir, I am grateful to you for attacking most unsparingly my most cherished opinion! Do please continue!” Had the club manager thrown the asshole out, Mill would not have objected. > > When someone comes into the SDMB and interrupts a measured conversation about Brexit with racist shit comparing immigrants to vermin and talking about how “our” way of life is incompatible with the way of life of other races, they’re calling Harriet Taylor a whore. That metaphor is terrible. Discussing Brexit is not a club. Discussing Brexit is a very specific conversation which includes the reasons for and against Brexit. Some of those reasons includes the subject of immigration. If one is to argue against immigration one is bound to bring up negatives of immigration which unavoidably means that there will be some negatives that will be applied to immigrants. Now, the template to shut down unwanted conversation seems to follow this pattern: Declare a particular line of conversation to be racist, so-called “hate-speech”, \_\_\_\_\_phobic, etc. Declare that those who employ that line of conversation are racist Nazis. Make the assumption that every thread on this site must be free of any potential offense because it’s a private club. Call for instabans of those in line #2 because they drive away all the participants. Well, if you are going to have sub forums such as The Pit and Great Debates then topics and conversations that will offend people are a feature. You are not going to have a “great” debate on subjects that are not contentious. What do you propose for Great Debates? Whether or not sales tax is optimal at 4.5% or 6%? Perhaps TPTB ought to rename Great Debates to the Great Consensus and there could be a sticky or 5 at the top of the forum telling people what subjects and in what precise manner they can all agree to and it could be a happy place? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/73 "2019-05-30T19:57:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That metaphor is terrible. > > Discussing Brexit is not a club. Discussing Brexit is a very specific conversation which includes the reasons for and against Brexit. Some of those reasons includes the subject of immigration. If one is to argue against immigration one is bound to bring up negatives of immigration which unavoidably means that there will be some negatives that will be applied to immigrants. > > Now, the template to shut down unwanted conversation seems to follow this pattern: > > Declare a particular line of conversation to be racist, so-called “hate-speech”, \_\_\_\_\_phobic, etc. > Declare that those who employ that line of conversation are racist Nazis. > Make the assumption that every thread on this site must be free of any potential offense because it’s a private club. > Call for instabans of those in line #2 because they drive away all the participants. > > Well, if you are going to have sub forums such as The Pit and Great Debates then topics and conversations that will offend people are a feature. You are not going to have a “great” debate on subjects that are not contentious. What do you propose for Great Debates? Whether or not sales tax is optimal at 4.5% or 6%? Perhaps TPTB ought to rename Great Debates to the Great Consensus and there could be a sticky or 5 at the top of the forum telling people what subjects and in what precise manner they can all agree to and it could be a happy place? If you think reasoned discourse about immigration policy includes comparing immigrants to vermin and talking about how “our way” of life is incompatible with that of other races, then you’re part of the problem I’m talking about here, and I’m less interested in talking with you than I am in talking to people who recognize what a nasty, shitty problem such discourse brings to the board. Edit: I’ll note that already the mods disagree with you. No mod is defending the actual content of the post as acceptable. The question isn’t whether people get to spew racist venom on the boards; the question is how many chances they should get to do so before facing sanction. So you’re not really even addressing the conversation as it stands. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/74 "2019-05-30T20:02:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you think reasoned discourse about immigration policy includes comparing immigrants to vermin and talking about how “our way” of life is incompatible with that of other races, then you’re part of the problem I’m talking about here, and I’m less interested in talking with you than I am in talking to people who recognize what a nasty, shitty problem such discourse brings to the board. Breeding like vermin? I wouldn’t say that. That’s needlessly inflammatory. IMO. But, I wouldn’t call for the ban of someone who did. I think it’s counterproductive if your goal is to convince reasonable people to use that form of dehumanizing language. I don’t think voicing concern over demographic or potential demographic change is an intrinsically hateful expression though. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/75 "2019-05-30T20:16:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Breeding like vermin? I wouldn’t say that. That’s needlessly inflammatory. IMO. But, I wouldn’t call for the ban of someone who did. I think it’s counterproductive if your goal is to convince reasonable people to use that form of dehumanizing language. I don’t think voicing concern over demographic or potential demographic change is an intrinsically hateful expression though. I know you don’t. We’re already past that point. If you want to argue that the mod notes he received for this speech were unwarranted, I can’t make you do it in another thread, but I wish you would. Here it’s an irrelevant distraction. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/76 "2019-05-30T20:19:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I may be confused, but I thought that racist arguments/debates were permitted on the SDMB. I know that hate speech is banned, but I genuinely thought that we could have a debate about racism, with my hope that is vanishing, that the debate would be a logical and point by point refutation of that horrible belief. Sure, in theory we can. I think what people are arguing is that we shouldn’t be able to. Because they apparently don’t want to refute point by point - the hope is that whoever posted a point about racism (or, in this case, immigration) would be instantly banned. Thus, on many topics, as **octopus** mentions, there won’t be any debate. Which is, in the eyes of some, a feature rather than a bug. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/77 "2019-05-30T20:25:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know you don’t. We’re already past that point. If you want to argue that the mod notes he received for this speech were unwarranted, I can’t make you do it in another thread, but I wish you would. Here it’s an irrelevant distraction. You clearly know that I’m arguing against instabans. You clearly know that I think the tactic of labeling speech \_\_\_\_ so it can be an instaban is a shady tactic. Why would you claim I’m arguing something else? Oh, you are obtusely making the claim that I’m “derailing” to get me silenced in this thread? Why not? It has worked before. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/78 "2019-05-30T20:28:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You clearly know that I’m arguing against instabans. No, I don’t. Are you saying instabans for racist vitriol is a bad idea, but you agree with the current board stance that newbies should get a note or two before they receive warnings and bannings for racist vitriol, because such vitriol is fundamentally unacceptable? Or are you saying that that sort of venom should be acceptable conduct on the board, which is what I thought you were saying? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/79 "2019-05-30T20:41:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, I don’t. Are you saying instabans for racist vitriol is a bad idea, but you agree with the current board stance that newbies should get a note or two before they receive warnings and bannings for racist vitriol, because such vitriol is fundamentally unacceptable? > > Or are you saying that that sort of venom should be acceptable conduct on the board, which is what I thought you were saying? Look, I think breeding like rabbits or other form of associations to animals can be considered dehumanizng. The fact is, dehumanizing language is used all the time on this board it’s just that some targets of dehumanizing language are acceptable and some are not. So, I personally, would try to refrain from it. As a standard, I think what the mods have said and how the mods act is actually quite appropriate. Give those who are new here the benefit of the doubt and use notes to try to correct behavior. If those notes do not have the desired result then warn and ban. Now what actually constitutes racist vitriol is a large spectrum and I think different people are going to have different levels of tolerance for that. I don’t think a zero tolerance policy or insta-bans are going to work if you want any form of political discussion, election discussion, or Great Debate discussion. There are far too many points of view that can be labeled hateful as a tactic to make that a productive policy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483/80 "2019-05-30T20:52:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > As a standard, I think what the mods have said and how the mods act is actually quite appropriate. Give those who are new here the benefit of the doubt and use notes to try to correct behavior. If those notes do not have the desired result then warn and ban. If that’s the case, I don’t even know why you’re making these vague statements about how “If one is to argue against immigration one is bound to bring up negatives of immigration which unavoidably means that there will be some negatives that will be applied to immigrants” and “Well, if you are going to have sub forums such as The Pit and Great Debates then topics and conversations that will offend people are a feature.” Those are irrelevant if you agree that warnings and bannings are eventually appropriate for this sort of language. And when you say, “Breeding like vermin? I wouldn’t say that…But, I wouldn’t call for the ban of someone who did,” that seems to contradict saying that you think it’s appropriate to “warn and ban” people who use such language. I don’t think your point is coherent or relevant, so I think I’ll let conversation with you pass on by. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-breed-like-rabbits/834483.md?page=5)