# Immigrants who enter the country illegally and the costs they impose **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124 "2011-04-29T04:21:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/1 "2011-04-29T04:21:45Z")
Another thread has looked at crime. What about the economic impacts of illegal immigration to the US? California has been an interesting [case study](http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm): > [@](#): > > The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. The enormous rise in the costs of illegal immigrants over the intervening ten years is due to the rapid growth in illegal residents. It is reasonable to expect those costs to continue to soar if action is not taken to turn the tide. > > “Nineteen ninety-four was the same year that California voters rebelled and overwhelmingly passed Proposition 187, which sought to limit liability for mass illegal immigration. Since then, state and local governments have blatantly ignored the wishes of the voters and continued to shell out publicly financed benefits on illegal aliens,” said Stein. "Predictably, the costs of illegal immigration have grown geometrically, while the state has spiraled into a fiscal crisis that has brought it near bankruptcy. One of the issues is that unskilled labour generally has a net cost. The [National Research Council](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309063566) looked at this in in 1997, and found that unskilled immigrants on average collect $160.000 net present value (2010 dollars) more in their lifetime than they pay in taxes. Unskilled immigrants get much more benefits than natives, because they are much poorer, and because the American government _in practice_ gives immigrants, even illegal immigrants, benefits which they are officially not supposed to get. This will be a problem in the future also because there seems to be a [high drop out rate too](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023). > [@](#): > > A recent study by UC Santa Barbara’s California Dropout Research Project estimates that high-school dropouts in 2007 alone will cost the state $24.2 billion in future economic losses. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/2 "2011-04-29T21:45:08Z")
Indeed, I agree. Illegals pay no taxes, and also get health care and welfare, which drains on our already strained system, and they do not contribute anything useful to it. In my opinion, we should take Mexico, that way, the illegals become citizens(TAXPAYERS), and we can solve Mexico’s Drug War, too. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/3 "2011-04-29T22:07:25Z")
> [@](#): > > This will be a problem in the future also because there seems to be a [high drop out rate too](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023). The dropout rate has a cost because people who are uneducated produce less in terms of GDP then people who are. But that’s not really an argument against illegal immigration, since people who aren’t in the country at all contribute nothing to US GDP. Calculated the same way, preventing all illegal immigration would have an even higher cost. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/4 "2011-04-29T22:20:03Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > One of the issues is that unskilled labour generally has a net cost. The [National Research Council](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309063566) looked at this in in 1997, and found that unskilled immigrants on average collect $160.000 net present value (2010 dollars) more in their lifetime than they pay in taxes. > > Unskilled immigrants get much more benefits than natives, because they are much poorer, and because the American government _in practice_ gives immigrants, even illegal immigrants, benefits which they are officially not supposed to get. > > This will be a problem in the future also because there seems to be a [high drop out rate too](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023). Could you try to limit your discussion to “illegal” immigrants? You seem to be conflating those with unskilled labor in general in order to make your point. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/5 "2011-04-29T22:25:38Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > Indeed, I agree. Illegals pay no taxes, and also get health care and welfare, which drains on our already strained system, and they do not contribute anything useful to it. “Illegals” (sic) do pay taxes, although if they work under the table they’re probably paying less. Contrary to popular belief, you can’t just “get health care” in this country, be you a citizen, legal immigrant, or illegally-present alien. The US also does not have “welfare,” so “illegals” (sic) cannot be getting it; it does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/6 "2011-04-29T22:34:50Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > One of the issues is that unskilled labour generally has a net cost. The [National Research Council](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309063566) looked at this in in 1997, and found that unskilled immigrants on average collect $160.000 net present value (2010 dollars) more in their lifetime than they pay in taxes. They also say: > [@](#): > > Using a basic economic model, with plausible assumptions, we show that immigration produces net economic gains for domestic residents, for several reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/7 "2011-04-29T22:39:36Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > One of the issues is that unskilled labour generally has a net cost. The [National Research Council](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309063566) looked at this in in 1997, and found that unskilled immigrants on average collect $160.000 net present value (2010 dollars) more in their lifetime than they pay in taxes. 160.00 dollars over their entire lifetimes! There’s apparently something like 10 million illegal immigrants in the US, so thats something like a billion and a half dollars total. Per year , thats maybe a third of a % of the US federal budget. On a per-lifetime basis, its, I dunno, depending on what the lifetime of an immigrant is, maybe what we spend funding NPR for a month. Thats pretty close to nothing. We probably spend more money then that futily trying to keep illegal immigrants out then it costs us per year to just let them stay here and occasionally pick up their hospital tabs. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/8 "2011-04-29T22:46:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Thats pretty close to nothing. We probably spend more money then that futily trying to keep illegal immigrants out then it costs us per year to just let them stay here and occasionally pick up their hospital tabs. For comparison, the current border fence project is planned to cost something like 50 billion. We could apparently cover the lifetime expenses of 300 million illegal immigrants for that money, which itself is something like three times the entire population of Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/9 "2011-04-29T22:57:18Z")
Err…and on rereading, 160.000 is probably a typo for 160,000 (though that seems implausible from the other end). Do you have a cite that isn’t a several hundred page document, or at least a page number. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/10 "2011-04-29T23:14:05Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Err..and on rereading, 160.000 is probably a typo for 160,000 (though that seems implausible from the other end). Do you have a cite that isn’t a several hundred page document, or at least a page number. Many countries write 160,000 as 160.000. I suspect the OP is from one of those countries. The thing about illegal immigrants is that they give us a better standard of living, since they do jobs for less pay. Many of us probably wouldn’t have gardeners or housekeepers if we had to pay legal residents for those services You have to be really careful, and really unbiased, when you start calculating stuff like this. My guess is that it’s a net gain for most Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/11 "2011-04-29T23:29:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Many countries write 160,000 as 160.000. I suspect the OP is from one of those countries. Could be, though it seems kinda weird for a foreigner to be worked up about illegal immigration to the US. In anycase, I’m kinda curious where the number comes from regardless of its value. The graph on page 344 seems to suggest that the net effect of immigration on gov’t budgets becomes positive pretty quickly, and the table on the next page gives immigrants a net positive value of _positive_ 160,000 dollars (though in 1997 dollars, not 2010 as the OP mentioned, so maybe its just coincidence and not the number the OP was referring to). I might be reading the graph and table wrong though, and I don’t really have time or interest to read through the preceding 344 pages to see what the terms mean, so hopefully the OP will return to tell us precisely where the number comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/12 "2011-04-29T23:32:28Z")
Everything I’ve read says that illegals try to stay as far away from the government as possible, so the idea that they are wandering down to the local government office demanding benefits is pretty laughable. They will use emergency room services, but I suspect that legal uninsured people are a bigger problem. Quite a few work in real jobs with forged papers, and so are paying into Social Security despite having no chance on ever collecting it. They are no doubt costing the schools money, but I agree that the best investment is for them to be educated, some number of the children are citizens, and even if legal they are probably paying very little directly or indirectly in property taxes, and so would be costing the system money in any case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/13 "2011-04-29T23:49:00Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Could be, though it seems kinda weird for a foreigner to be worked up about illegal immigration to the US. We have a few foreigners living here. Or so I’m told. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/14 "2011-04-30T03:05:25Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Could be, though it seems kinda weird for a foreigner to be worked up about illegal immigration to the US. The person could be a former foreigner who is now a legal immigrant. It’s been my experience that few people get more angry over illegal immigration than someone who has had a difficult time with the legal immigration process. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/15 "2011-04-30T03:40:20Z")
The argument that illegal immigrants consume more resources than they provide isn’t really compelling considering the same can be said for anyone in the bottom tax brackets. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/16 "2011-04-30T03:46:49Z")
> [@just\_some\_guy5](#): > > The argument that illegal immigrants consume more resources than they provide isn’t really compelling considering the same can be said for anyone in the bottom tax brackets. Yeah, but it’s pone thing to accept that you have to carry your brother or cousin, it’s another to add to that burden by having to carry strangers. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/17 "2011-04-30T03:52:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Many countries write 160,000 as 160.000. I suspect the OP is from one of those countries. > > The thing about illegal immigrants is that they give us a better standard of living, since they do jobs for less pay. Many of us probably wouldn’t have gardeners or housekeepers if we had to pay legal residents for those services > > You have to be really careful, and really unbiased, when you start calculating stuff like this. My guess is that it’s a net gain for most Americans. It’s certainly not a net gain for those unskilled workers they displace or drive down the wages of. One thing I cannot fathom is that given that illegal immigrants take jobs from the economic stratum occupied disproportionately by blacks, why the Democratic party isn’t up in arms about it. Blacks just keep getting dealt a shitty hand. And soon after the legal system was set right to allow Blacks to do well, along comes millions of illegals to keep them down. Sad. And frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/18 "2011-04-30T03:55:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yeah, but it’s pone thing to accept that you have to carry your brother or cousin, it’s another to add to that burden by having to carry strangers. Fair enough, but for all intents and purposes they’re no different than the lower 50% of our tax base. An upside comes from the fact that unlike the lower 50% of our tax base, we don’t also have to subsidize illegal immigrants’ retirement via social security. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/19 "2011-04-30T03:59:41Z")
> [@just\_some\_guy5](#): > > The argument that illegal immigrants consume more resources than they provide isn’t really compelling considering the same can be said for anyone in the bottom tax brackets. That might be true, but I don’t think its obviously so. Many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes, but presumably will never get medicare or Social Security, and while they probably pay little in income taxes and get a lot out from Medicaid and other welfare programs, I don’t think its exactly obvious that what they pay in overwelms what they get out, on average. Indeed, if I’m reading **Chen’s** link right, thats not the case. After the first few years, immigrants are a net boon to the federal budget. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124/20 "2011-04-30T04:25:40Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > That might be true, but I don’t think its obviously so. Many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes, but presumably will never get medicare or Social Security, and while they probably pay little in income taxes and get a lot out from Medicaid and other welfare programs, I don’t think its exactly obvious that what they pay in overwelms what they get out, on average. Indeed, if I’m reading **Chen’s** link right, thats not the case. After the first few years, immigrants are a net boon to the federal budget. Completely agree with you here. In fact, I touched on social security in my follow-up post. Didn’t mention healthcare only because we don’t have a clear view on this given that ERs are obligated to serve whoever walks in the door, but at a high level I think the idea that illegals are a net benefit to our economy is correct. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigrants-who-enter-the-country-illegally-and-the-costs-they-impose/580124.md?page=2)