# Immigration for the best and brightest **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472 "2011-10-22T21:00:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/1 "2011-10-22T21:00:13Z")
I believe that it should be made extremely easy for highly educated/accomplished people to immigrate to the United States. Are there any good arguments against this? Any reason why it should be difficult for doctors/engineers/scientists/etc to come here? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/2 "2011-10-22T21:46:11Z")
From the point of view of society, I’d say it’s a great idea (of course, I’m generally pro-immigration). But you’re going to see resistance. Not only from much of the usual anti-immigration crowd but also from American professionals that won’t want to see competition coming here. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/3 "2011-10-22T22:31:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are there any good arguments against this? Any reason why it should be difficult for doctors/engineers/scientists/etc to come here? Define ‘good’. One argument is that we have a glut of highly educated people here already who can’t find jobs, and immigration can drive down wages and benefits in the labor pool. So the argument isn’t that ‘there isn’t enough talent’ it is that business wants talented people who they can pay less and intimidate with threatening their visa status. It is one thing to bring over people who start brand new companies or file new patents. But there are already a ton of people with undergrad and grad degrees in the fields you list who can’t find work here already. But I don’t know if you are referring to just anyone with a MS in biology, or if you are referring to the people who actually file patents, start companies, make breakthroughs, etc. But you can’t really tell who will be successful and who won’t. Also (and I’ll admit this is a pretty shoddy argument) terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda have very intelligent, well educated people among their ranks. No.1 Bin Laden was a civil engineer. No. 2 Al Zawahiri was a physician. KSM (who planned 9/11) was a mechanical engineer. The doctor plot in the UK was pulled off by physicians, and I think over half the Al Qaeda 9/11 hijackers had degrees in engineering or architecture. > **[Why do so many terrorists have engineering degrees?](https://slate.com/technology/2009/12/why-do-so-many-terrorists-have-engineering-degrees.html)** > > Engineering is not a profession most people associate with religion. The concrete trade of buildings and bridges seems grounded in the secular... > [@](#): > > Why do so many terrorists have engineering degrees?..A paper (PDF) released this summer by two sociologists, Diego Gambetta and Steffen Hertog, adds empirical evidence to this observation. The pair looked at more than 400 radical Islamic terrorists from more than 30 nations in the Middle East and Africa born mostly between the 1950s and 1970s. Earlier studies had shown that terrorists tend to be wealthier and better-educated than their countrymen, but Gambetta and Hertog found that engineers, in particular, were three to four times more likely to become violent terrorists than their peers in finance, medicine or the sciences. The next most radicalizing graduate degree, in a distant second, was Islamic Studies. You could argue that loosening the requirements might make it easier for well educated terrorist operatives to get here. However I think that this mentality has already cost us thousands of potential immigrants post-9/11 who were educated and talented who couldn’t enter the country since immigration became harder. Then again that article says it is mainly just engineers and not people trained in finance, medicine or science who are the problem. I never trusted Dilbert. Another argument (from their POV) is why would the best and brightest choose to come to the US? We have a large population and a wide variety of science saavy areas (SF Bay area, San Diego, Boston, Raleigh, Seattle, etc. etc. etc). But why would they necessarily choose the US over going to a growing nation like China to set up shop? Plus the east asian nations are taking fields like biotechnology more seriously. While we here in the US are debating the morality of stem cells nations like Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea are pushing ahead on research. We can make it easier for talented people to emigrate here. But will we continue to have the highest incentives for people to come here instead of going to an East Asian nation? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/4 "2011-10-22T23:47:32Z")
It was my understanding that academics and professionals have better odds anyway. I think that it is more ethical to provide citizenship paths for people already here, though. We have a system that asks them to come. ---
**Author:** ![Buchanan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Buchanan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buchanan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/5 "2011-10-23T00:16:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe that it should be made extremely easy for highly educated/accomplished people to immigrate to the United States. > > Are there any good arguments against this? Any reason why it should be difficult for doctors/engineers/scientists/etc to come here? Of course countries should target the best and brightest, and in the sectors and industries with gaps to fill. Prior to Ted Kennedy’s 1965 Immigration Act, the US was closer to having such a policy. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/6 "2011-10-23T00:18:22Z")
Or here’s an idea: Why don’t we just work on making our own the best and brightest? No need to import. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Buchanan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Buchanan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buchanan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/7 "2011-10-23T00:23:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I think that it is more ethical to provide citizenship paths for people already here, though. We have a system that asks them to come. You mean we should move the illegals already in the country to the front of line? Why would you want to incentivize law breaking? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/8 "2011-10-23T00:42:29Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Define ‘good’. > > One argument is that we have a glut of highly educated people here already who can’t find jobs, and immigration can drive down wages and benefits in the labor pool. This isn’t a particularly compelling argument. The unemployment [rate](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm) for college grads is around 4.2%. It’s about half that for [Phds](http://brendarosenhamer.blog.com/2011/02/10/national-science-foundation-1-7-unemployment-for-phds-in-sciences-and-engineers/). There is not certainly not a glut of those workers, even in the period we are currently in. More importantly, the contributions of educated workers (foreign-born or domestic) typically lead to the creation of more jobs at every level. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So the argument isn’t that ‘there isn’t enough talent’ it is that business wants talented people who they can pay less and intimidate with threatening their visa status. While the second part of your statement is generally true, that is the case BECAUSE our current laws do not protect recent immigrants. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Another argument (from their POV) is why would the best and brightest choose to come to the US? We have a large population and a wide variety of science saavy areas (SF Bay area, San Diego, Boston, Raleigh, Seattle, etc. etc. etc). But why would they necessarily choose the US over going to a growing nation like China to set up shop? Plus the east asian nations are taking fields like biotechnology more seriously. While we here in the US are debating the morality of stem cells nations like Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea are pushing ahead on research. > > We can make it easier for talented people to emigrate here. But will we continue to have the highest incentives for people to come here instead of going to an East Asian nation? While I agree that other nations are doing a great job spurring investment on a national level in science and other fields, ultimately, smart people are attracted to other smart people. Money is part of the equation, but so is the ability to work in a country that still is far ahead of the competition in the vast majority of tech fields. Our universities and research institutions still crush the competition, and our culture is vastly more accommodating and inclusive to most of the world’s population. That may not always be the case, but we have more than enough attractive incentives to lure the world’s best and brightest here for work. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/9 "2011-10-23T01:11:38Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > This isn’t a particularly compelling argument. The unemployment [rate](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm) for college grads is around 4.2%. It’s about half that for [Phds](http://brendarosenhamer.blog.com/2011/02/10/national-science-foundation-1-7-unemployment-for-phds-in-sciences-and-engineers/). There is not certainly not a glut of those workers, even in the period we are currently in. More importantly, the contributions of educated workers (foreign-born or domestic) typically lead to the creation of more jobs at every level. > > . It is my understanding that a lot of people with undergrad and grad degrees in science leave the field. And even if you break into a field like academia, they only take the best of the best of the best. There are already a glut of scientists in the US. I can see the value of taking the very best STEM talented people from foreign countries. But does anyone really know who they are? Nobody can tell who will play a major role in a medical advance, or who will create a patent, or start a company by and large. The unemployment rate for college grads may be low, but that doesn’t tell you what they are doing. The people I went to college with who got degrees in biology and chemistry who are now waiting tables are not unemployed. But they aren’t employed as scientists either. The person who gets a PhD then takes a non-science office job isn’t unemployed either. > **[Does the U.S. Produce Too Many Scientists?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-the-us-produce-too-m/)** > > American science education lags behind that of many other nations, right? So why does it produce so many talented young researchers who cannot find a job in their chosen field of study? A science career beyond undergrad (if you intend to go into academia) seems like a pretty perverse treadmill. Work 70 hours a week in grad school for 25k a year. Then work 70 hours a week as a postdoc for 40k a year. Then if you are lucky become an assistant professor. But most never make it that far. So there is an ever revolving number of people who do grad school and post docs then drop out (from what I know). It creates cheap science the same way the residency system creates cheap hospital physician labor. But there is an oversupply of scientists and an under supply of science jobs for them. I don’t see any reason to think there aren’t enough people trained in science, math or technology domestically. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/10 "2011-10-23T01:11:39Z")
If this country’s forefathers had only taken the best and the brightest immigrants of the past, we would be a very sparsely populated country. It kind of amazes me how many Americans always seem to forget that they are just a couple of generations from the boat. Were their ancestors the best and brightest from their countries? No, they were not. And yet somehow the country has managed not fall to pieces. I don’t see a whole bunch of dumb or lazy immigrants, illegal or legal, hanging around me. From my days in kindergarten on up, I have found that the foreigners around me have been just as smart, if not smarter, than the Americans. Sorry, I see no need for an SAT test at the immigration office. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/11 "2011-10-23T02:03:15Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Our universities and research institutions still crush the competition, and our culture is vastly more accommodating and inclusive to most of the world’s population. Not any more; post-911 we’ve become quite hostile and unwelcoming. They might still come to get educated but they are much less likely to stay longer than necessary in a nation that fears and hates them. Even tourism has dropped off. > [@Buchanan](#): > > You mean we should move the illegals already in the country to the front of line? Why would you want to incentivize law breaking? We already do; we just do so in a way that enables and encourages their exploitation. We _want_ immigrants here; we just want them here _illegally_ since that makes them better victims. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/12 "2011-10-23T02:29:59Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It is my understanding that a lot of people with undergrad and grad degrees in science leave the field. And even if you break into a field like academia, they only take the best of the best of the best. > > There are already a glut of scientists in the US. I can see the value of taking the very best STEM talented people from foreign countries. But does anyone really know who they are? Nobody can tell who will play a major role in a medical advance, or who will create a patent, or start a company by and large. > > The unemployment rate for college grads may be low, but that doesn’t tell you what they are doing. The people I went to college with who got degrees in biology and chemistry who are now waiting tables are not unemployed. But they aren’t employed as scientists either. The person who gets a PhD then takes a non-science office job isn’t unemployed either. > > [Does the U.S. Produce Too Many Scientists? | Scientific American](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m) > > A science career beyond undergrad (if you intend to go into academia) seems like a pretty perverse treadmill. Work 70 hours a week in grad school for 25k a year. Then work 70 hours a week as a postdoc for 40k a year. Then if you are lucky become an assistant professor. But most never make it that far. So there is an ever revolving number of people who do grad school and post docs then drop out (from what I know). It creates cheap science the same way the residency system creates cheap hospital physician labor. But there is an oversupply of scientists and an under supply of science jobs for them. > > I don’t see any reason to think there aren’t enough people trained in science, math or technology domestically. There may be a glut of graduates attempting to enter academia in the STEM fields but there is an extreme shortage of workers in the public sector. IMHO we had a century and a half of growth (~1820-1975) where the US has amazing growth due to our acceptance (or unfortunately forced labor) from immigrants, this allowed us in a time of a world labor shortage to flourish. Now that automation has largely removed that historical shortage of labor we need to move into innovation to keep our growth based system on the uphill slope. Our K-12 STEM education has not significantly improved in the past 30 years and I will say that being on the hiring side the undergrad situation does not look much better. I know this claim is based on my limited anecdotal experience and is no way valid as a scientific claim but even lots of degree holders are not suitable to hire. I have interviewed scores of people from some of the larger, more prestigious colleges I have interviewees who can not answer simple logic puzzles or demonstrate a basic knowledge of why you do things particular way or how they work at a basic level. It appears that several Computer Science programs have devolved from a degree of understanding processes to one of knowing products. I am not sure if this is due to the gross misnaming of “computer science” (no it’s not science) or if there has been a shift in the curriculum. I am typically hiring peer “systems architects” another misnamed job title (sorry AIA) That is a job where you need to know how things work, not how to work products. We find it very difficult to find competent US graduates so we either move to H1B or non-college graduate candidates. I know we are also hurting trying to find good EE’s, and even non-technical fields need a more STEM education than we are providing in this country. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/13 "2011-10-23T02:47:56Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It is my understanding that a lot of people with undergrad and grad degrees in science leave the field. And even if you break into a field like academia, they only take the best of the best of the best. Why are you limiting the scope of your investigation to academia? > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > There are already a glut of scientists in the US. I don’t think this is true. Even though your cite makes that claim upfront, it also contains the following: > [@](#): > > At the same time, however, the U.S. annually admits large numbers of foreign graduate students and postdocs and finds itself **increasingly dependent on an inherently unreliable stream of young foreign scientists, mostly in the country on short-term, non-resident visas, to do much of the routine labor that powers American research**. The American research enterprise—the indispensable engine of national prosperity and the world’s leading innovation establishment—has therefore become vulnerable, observers say, to conditions beyond its borders and its control. At the same time, experts note that recruiting sufficient amounts of the talent needed for vital defense-oriented scientific and engineering work that requires security clearances has become increasingly difficult. Would this be the case if there were really a glut of American-born workers? Furthermore, the article you cited is mostly discussing the hard sciences, labs, and the ways we fund them. It doesn’t talk at all about the vast number of fields people get advanced degrees in. Focusing on the tech and science fields more broadly, many in the industry tend to draw the opposite conclusion that your cite does. For [example](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/for-science-and-tech-companies-immigration-debate-strikes-a-different-tone/2011/06/16/AGmWoxbH_story.html): > [@](#): > > The national debate over immigration reform strikes a different tone in **technology and science circles where demand for researchers and workers with specialized skills often has companies in need of more foreign nationals than can be hired.** > > “Unemployment in general almost never affects people in the very highly skilled jobs,” said Sheela Murthy, the head of Owings Mills-based Murthy Law. “**If [companies] run an ad and say we have 10 openings, they’re lucky if they get five properly qualified people.”** Another [article](http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2009/09/give_me_your_tired_your_poor_your_startup_founders.html): > [@](#): > > **About one-quarter of American tech companies are founded in part or entirely by foreigners**. The proportion in Silicon Valley is even higher—a recent survey (PDF) by Vivek Wadhwa, an engineering professor at Duke University, showed that more than 52 percent of Valley startups were founded or co-founded by people born outside of the United States. According to Wadhwa’s research, immigrant-founded firms produced $52 billion in sales and employed 450,000 workers in 2005. > > The tech industry has long criticized the United States’ byzantine immigration restrictions. \*\*Every year, the government allows just 85,000 skilled workers to enter the country legally—far fewer than the industry says is optimal. > \*\* > **Why do American tech firms need so many immigrant employees? Because there aren’t enough native workers to fill the jobs tech companies need.** According to the National Science Foundation, about 60 percent of doctorate degrees in engineering at American universities are awarded to foreign students who are in the country on temporary visas (PDF). And [another](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189315,00.html): > [@](#): > > **“I have trouble filling high-tech jobs in remote areas, and even in metropolitan areas finding the right person,”** said Woody Sessums, a vice president at Cisco Systems, Inc. (CSCO). “We want the very smartest, the most high-level engineers to come here and stay, and we have to compete globally.” > > " **We don’t have enough homegrown scientists and people who are well-trained in math and science, and what happens is those jobs are offshored or outsourced to places like India and China,"** Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said as the Judiciary Committee debated the issue Monday. “It represents a real challenge to American competitiveness.” Although your article makes some important points about the market within academia, I am not sure it reflects the overall demand for skilled workers. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The unemployment rate for college grads may be low, but that doesn’t tell you what they are doing. The people I went to college with who got degrees in biology and chemistry who are now waiting tables are not unemployed. But they aren’t employed as scientists either. The person who gets a PhD then takes a non-science office job isn’t unemployed either. This is just conjecture and anecdote though. Surely there are plenty of people who fit your example, but just because a lawyer decides to become a congressman or a lobbyist doesn’t really tell us much. This [graph](http://persistentastonishment.blogspot.com/2011/05/six-graphs-answer-questions-about-phd.html) from 2006 tell us that the vast majority PhDs work within their field. The involuntary out-of-field rate varied between .6% and 5.4%. It would seems that the waiter with a doctorate is a fairly rare occurrence. The cite also notes that 47.1% of STEM PhDs work outside of academia, and that that percentage is even greater for high demand occupations like engineers (as opposed to mathematicians). > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > A science career beyond undergrad (if you intend to go into academia) seems like a pretty perverse treadmill. I agree, but this is a subset of the careers available to highly educated individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/14 "2011-10-23T22:49:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not any more; post-911 we’ve become quite hostile and unwelcoming. They might still come to get educated but they are much less likely to stay longer than necessary in a nation that fears and hates them. Even tourism has dropped off. Cite for that? Anyways a lot of the best and brightest do come here from all over the world especially East Asians, Indians, and Middle Easterners. They are a growing minority and I don’t see more coming unless we cut the corporate tax in half or whatnot or if Asia gets annihilated in a nuclear war. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/15 "2011-10-23T22:57:49Z")
may sound good in theory, but theory does not work well when the regulatory system is corrupt and a lot of the business management is blatantly biased in favor of foreigners, for various reasons (in part, incidentally, because being foreign makes it harder to verify validity of claims on the resume and hence results in prettier resumes). Is every Indian with a resume claiming 10 years of experience in engineering a “good” engineer we should import? Reputedly that’s how it seems to be working with H1B visas nowadays. American engineers are not impressed. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/16 "2011-10-23T23:59:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not any more; post-911 we’ve become quite hostile and unwelcoming. Please support this claim with evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/17 "2011-10-24T00:33:23Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > may sound good in theory, but theory does not work well when the regulatory system is corrupt and a lot of the business management is blatantly biased in favor of foreigners, for various reasons (in part, incidentally, because being foreign makes it harder to verify validity of claims on the resume and hence results in prettier resumes). Is every Indian with a resume claiming 10 years of experience in engineering a “good” engineer we should import? Reputedly that’s how it seems to be working with H1B visas nowadays. American engineers are not impressed. That’s not how H-1B visas work. The primary criteria for an H-1B visa are a) the job requires at least a bachelor’s degree or the foreign equivalent in a particular field of study; and b) the beneficiary of the petition has the required degree. There is no requirement to be the best and brightest to get an H-1B visa. There is, however, a legal requirement that the employer pay at least the prevailing wage for the position, as determined by the Dept. of Labor, plus pay all the legal and government filing fees for the H-1B petition. Which, if everyone is following the rules, would be a pretty strong disincentive to hire a foreigner over a U.S. worker. BTW many H-1B beneficiaries are U.S.-educated. Which means their education claims are no harder to verify than anyone else’s. Eva Luna, U.S. immigration paralegal (who has prepared over the years, oh, maybe 1,000 H-1B petitions for all kind of employers - many H-1B beneficiaries aren’t engineers or IT specialists at all!) So yeah, I’d like to know where your knowledge comes from. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/18 "2011-10-24T00:57:31Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Or here’s an idea: Why don’t we just work on making our own the best and brightest? No need to import. 😉 Nah. We already **tried** dat! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/19 "2011-10-24T01:03:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I know we are also hurting trying to find good EE’s, and even non-technical fields need a more STEM education than we are providing in this country. Same here. There is a shortage of good MS and PhD level EEs and computer scientists, we in Silicon Valley are hiring, and salaries are very high. People are getting multiple offers. I see 10 - 15 resumes a day from top schools, and 85% are foreign born with undergraduate degrees from India or China. Companies support getting people they hire green cards and eventual citizenship, and I know lots of people who have become citizens this way. For the real best and the brightest, there is (or was) a special way for the top in a field to get through. You have to be endorsed by experts. Perhaps **Eva Luna** knows the name of this program, I know it only from writing endorsement letters for someone. This has been going on for quite some time. I work in a top design group, and as someone born in the US I am part of a tiny minority. I assure you the US electronics industry would be in serious trouble if we had a restrictive immigration policy in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/20 "2011-10-24T01:30:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > For the real best and the brightest, there is (or was) a special way for the top in a field to get through. You have to be endorsed by experts. Perhaps **Eva Luna** knows the name of this program, I know it only from writing endorsement letters for someone. You’re probably thinking of the [O-1 nonimmigrant category,](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b9930b89284a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=b9930b89284a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD) or its green card analogue, the [Eb-1 Extraordinary Ability](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=17b983453d4a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=17b983453d4a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD) category. This category is VERY highly scrutinized and not easy to get. The vast majority of employment-based green cards are limited by annual quotas and require documenting that there no available and willing U.S. workers with the required skillset, and that you are offering the prevailing wage for the occupation and geographic area. The process is a real PITA and generally takes at least several years start to finish. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472.md?page=2)