# Immigration for the best and brightest **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472 "2011-10-22T21:00:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/21 "2011-10-24T01:43:19Z")
Always a useful chart for these discussion: > **[a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf](https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf)** [PDF warning, in case you don’t actually look at the link text] ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/22 "2011-10-24T23:49:03Z")
Anything would be better than the current system, which is based primarily on family connections, but how do you determine the best and brightest? Neither Steve Jobs nor Bill Gates graduated from college, and they were indistinguishable from thousands of other nerds starting computer companies in 1977, almost all of which went bust quickly. If you have to admit 100 run-of-the-mill engineers to get one person who ends up creating a substantial number of jobs, is it worth it? Also, the proportion of tech entrepreneurs who are foreign-born is distorted by 8(a)/SDB. Those programs are a form of affirmative action that somehow came to encompass essentially any nonwhite person, so that an MIT Ph.D. born in Hong Kong gets the same preferences as a guy from the worst neighborhood in Detroit. Those preferences attract the foreign-born to start companies disproportionate to their numbers in the population. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/23 "2011-10-25T00:03:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It kind of amazes me how many Americans always seem to forget that they are just a couple of generations from the boat. Hey, now! Some of us had family fighting in the Civil War. (Kidding. I get your points.) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/24 "2011-10-25T00:54:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Same here. There is a shortage of good MS and PhD level EEs and computer scientists, we in Silicon Valley are hiring, and salaries are very high. People are getting multiple offers. I see 10 - 15 resumes a day from top schools, and 85% are foreign born with undergraduate degrees from India or China. My experience working in a Silicon Valley/Silicon Ally start up is similar. I’m looking at resumes from top schools with experience at top consulting firms, investment banks and tech companies. And we still can’t find people who can both a) do the job and b) speak English. I feel like most Americans don’t want to go into the sciences. They all want to go into law or investment banking and make $150k right out of school. And do people realize it costs a lot of money to host an H1B visa? > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Anything would be better than the current system, which is based primarily on family connections, but how do you determine the best and brightest? Neither Steve Jobs nor Bill Gates graduated from college, and they were indistinguishable from thousands of other nerds starting computer companies in 1977, almost all of which went bust quickly. If you have to admit 100 run-of-the-mill engineers to get one person who ends up creating a substantial number of jobs, is it worth it? What are the other 99 doing? Sitting around with their thumbs up their ass? Actually the system works reasonably well if you are really smart and work hard. You see, the thing is, high paying jobs are not handed out as prizes for getting a degree. You need to prove you can actually do the job. Apple isn’t going to hire people to sit around NOT inventing the next iPad. Yes, referrals and networking are the best way to get a job. I’m trying to weed through a hundred resumes to pick a dozen candidates to interview for one or two slots. I’d much rather have someone I know and trust tell me about their super-smart friend. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/25 "2011-10-25T01:04:04Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And do people realize it costs a lot of money to host an H1B visa? Yeah, I should have mentioned above - the government filing fees alone are over $2k for most employers. If you’re having a law firm do it for you, probably at least another $2k for them, probably more unless you’re a large company with a serious volume discount. Green cards run much more, because you’re required to run print ads. I ran an ad this week for an entry-level academic position; it was around $2k, and it wasn’t a particularly long one because the required skillset was fairly brief. And that’s the Chicago Sun-Times; I’ve run ads in the NYT for tech positions, and they run $5k and up on average. Per ad - you need to run more than one, and in multiple periodicals. In a major metro area, that’s some serious cash, and not all for the lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/26 "2011-10-25T08:14:41Z")
Hasn’t Canada used such policy for years? From what I’ve heard, Canada - is doing well for the moment - has the largest percentage of doctor level pizza bakers. Is this true? Canadian dopers? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/27 "2011-10-25T08:30:16Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > That’s not how H-1B visas work. The primary criteria for an H-1B visa are a) the job requires at least a bachelor’s degree or the foreign equivalent in a particular field of study; and b) the beneficiary of the petition has the required degree. There is no requirement to be the best and brightest to get an H-1B visa. There is, however, a legal requirement that the employer pay at least the prevailing wage for the position, as determined by the Dept. of Labor, plus pay all the legal and government filing fees for the H-1B petition. Which, if everyone is following the rules, would be a pretty strong disincentive to hire a foreigner over a U.S. worker. > > BTW many H-1B beneficiaries are U.S.-educated. Which means their education claims are no harder to verify than anyone else’s. > > Eva Luna, U.S. immigration paralegal (who has prepared over the years, oh, maybe 1,000 H-1B petitions for all kind of employers - many H-1B beneficiaries aren’t engineers or IT specialists at all!) > > So yeah, I’d like to know where your knowledge comes from. When I got mine, it was for a company so large that they got a number of H-1s\* per year pretty much automatically; if they went over that number, they had to use the regular process. We had to prove that I had worked for them outside the US for more than two years, provide copies of their latest yearly report, and a letter stating something along the lines of “Ms Nava has worked for us since [start date] (see copy of contract, attached), she’s got technical knowledge and knowledge of the company that we cannot get elsewhere and we want to move her to the US to take a position as [position].” I sent that, proof of fee payment and my passport to the Embassy in Madrid on a Tuesday, another messenger brought the stickered passport back on Thursday. But like I said, it was a huge company - the normal process involved a lot more paperwork: showing proof of that technical knowledge, showing that there had been an internal/external/in the US search, etc. - H-1A and H-1B refer to whether you’re being brought on as “someone with specialized technical knowledge” or as “a manager”, but in the end you get a sticker that says H-1. The difference is in the process, not the kind of Visa. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/28 "2011-10-25T10:09:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > When I got mine, it was for a company so large that they got a number of H-1s\* per year pretty much automatically; if they went over that number, they had to use the regular process. We had to prove that I had worked for them outside the US for more than two years, provide copies of their latest yearly report, and a letter stating something along the lines of “Ms Nava has worked for us since [start date] (see copy of contract, attached), she’s got technical knowledge and knowledge of the company that we cannot get elsewhere and we want to move her to the US to take a position as [position].” I sent that, proof of fee payment and my passport to the Embassy in Madrid on a Tuesday, another messenger brought the stickered passport back on Thursday. > > But like I said, it was a huge company - the normal process involved a lot more paperwork: showing proof of that technical knowledge, showing that there had been an internal/external/in the US search, etc. > > - H-1A and H-1B refer to whether you’re being brought on as “someone with specialized technical knowledge” or as “a manager”, but in the end you get a sticker that says H-1. The difference is in the process, not the kind of Visa. You sure that was an H-1B? It sounds more like a [blanket L-1B.](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=bfd10b89284a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=bfd10b89284a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD) There is no quota for those. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/29 "2011-10-25T10:20:09Z")
Ah, yes, you’re of course right. The H-1 would be from someone who’s a fresh hire while the Ls are for someone who’s been employed by the company abroad, right? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/30 "2011-10-25T10:23:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Ah, yes, you’re of course right. > > The H-1 would be from someone who’s a fresh hire while the Ls are for someone who’s been employed by the company abroad, right? Yep, though sometimes the H-1B can be handy for someone who has been employed by the company abroad; no need for one year of employment by the company abroad, and no need to show management authority or specialized knowledge of internal company procedures, proprietary technology, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/31 "2011-10-25T13:08:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What are the other 99 doing? Sitting around with their thumbs up their ass? Like any group of 99 people, a lot of them probably are, especially on a government contract. Even in this supposed age of austerity, often nobody cares whether you are beating off like a red-assed baboon, as long as you have a credible claim to being able to charge to the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/32 "2011-10-25T15:06:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > From the point of view of society, I’d say it’s a great idea (of course, I’m generally pro-immigration). But you’re going to see resistance. Not only from much of the usual anti-immigration crowd but also from American professionals that won’t want to see competition coming here. The best and brightest already compete on a global scale. It would only be good for us to import more scientists and engineers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/33 "2011-10-25T15:51:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are there any good arguments against this? Any reason why it should be difficult for doctors/engineers/scientists/etc to come here? It’s not particularly beneficial to their home countries. Over a third of US physicians are Indian or Chinese emigrants. Their educations have been subsidized, at least up to the undergraduate level, and generally well beyond, and the net effect is that India and China are subsidizing our own unworkable healthcare system. ---
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/34 "2011-10-26T00:04:47Z")
Here are some facts from CBS News. Illegal aliens are angry and DEMANDING a path to U. S. citizenship - yeah right. :Boom2: What kind of idiot thinks law breakers who entered the United States illegally have any rights? This video shows how angry illegals are at Obama for not opening the door to amnesty. I am angry at Obama because he is not deporting faster! :hmpf: This video from a highly credible source is worth your time. Don’t kid yourself these illegals reproduce like cockroaches and are invading America with little resistance. [Hispanic voters abandoning Obama - CBS News Video](http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7385833n&tag=contentMain;contentBody) ---
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/35 "2011-10-26T00:14:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe that it should be made extremely easy for highly educated/accomplished people to immigrate to the United States. > > Are there any good arguments against this? Any reason why it should be difficult for doctors/engineers/scientists/etc to come here? Only one argument is needed. State and public schools are funded by taxpayers for our own CITIZENS. Why should taxpayers pay for freeloaders from other countries? Let the foreigners solve their own problems in their own countries. Americans are tired of a world with its hand out, asking us to solve their problems. Don’t bring it here. Upgrade your own country, and stay out of the United States. It should be obvious that there are only so many jobs out their, (Note our current 9.1% unemployment). Why should we open our doors to foreigners when our TAXPAYING CITIZENS are out of work? We need to retrain our work force, our CITIZENS deserve it. We also have little sympathy for groups who reproduce like cockroaches, and then expect employment. These are stupid people that American citizens need to **kick hard** until they leave the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/36 "2011-10-26T00:39:26Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > Don’t kid yourself these illegals reproduce like cockroaches and are invading America with little resistance. And anti-immigration folks wonder why people think they’re racist. :rolleyes: For the record, [Obama has deported more illegal aliens than any previous president](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/37 "2011-10-26T00:57:22Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > You’re probably thinking of the [O-1 nonimmigrant category,](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b9930b89284a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=b9930b89284a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD) or its green card analogue, the [Eb-1 Extraordinary Ability](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=17b983453d4a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=17b983453d4a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD) category. This category is VERY highly scrutinized and not easy to get. The vast majority of employment-based green cards are limited by annual quotas and require documenting that there no available and willing U.S. workers with the required skillset, and that you are offering the prevailing wage for the occupation and geographic area. The process is a real PITA and generally takes at least several years start to finish. That’s probably it - the person in question had tons of papers and a high position in a top research center. I’ve done the normal green card route from a manager’s perspective, and it sure is a PITA, and we outsourced the most painful parts of it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/38 "2011-10-26T01:05:06Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > It should be obvious that there are only so many jobs out their, (Note our current 9.1% unemployment). Why should we open our doors to foreigners when our TAXPAYING CITIZENS are out of work? We need to retrain our work force, our CITIZENS deserve it. We also have little sympathy for groups who reproduce like cockroaches, and then expect employment. These are stupid people that American citizens need to **kick hard** until they leave the United States. Hope you never use Google. Founded by those immigrants you hate. Hope you don’t have an Intel microprocessor in your computer. Mostly designed by those immigrants you hate. (Probably AMD also, but I’ve never worked there.) ---
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/39 "2011-10-26T01:36:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Hope you never use Google. Founded by those immigrants you hate. Hope you don’t have an Intel microprocessor in your computer. Mostly designed by those immigrants you hate. (Probably AMD also, but I’ve never worked there.) Thanks for the information… I am sure you have **links** to prove your statements… I thought not. You know you hear about things like this but you never actually see them until this utube. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn73SyKBMio](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn73SyKBMio) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472/40 "2011-10-26T02:00:08Z")
> [@Cyclone](#): > > Thanks for the information… I am sure you have **links** to prove your statements… I thought not. > > [/CENTER] Oh, I have lots of links. Like one that says that [according to the IRS’s chief actuary, the agency estimates that 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay payroll taxes,](http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/UserFiles/File/Emerging%20Leaders%20Program/ELReport2011_ImmigrationDebate.pdf) (top of p. 15), not counting other taxes (sales, real estate via rent or mortgage, income tax by means other than payroll deduction, etc.) But somehow I get the feeling you aren’t here to discuss, you know, facts, so the amount of time and energy I’m willing to waste on you will be rather limited. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-for-the-best-and-brightest/600472.md?page=3)