# Immigration Reform **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323 "2013-01-07T06:50:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/81 "2013-01-11T18:59:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Bullshit.** America is not an idea-state like the Soviet Union, it is an ordinary nation-state like France, national identity based on language and culture and shared history. France has had ten different constitutional regimes since 1789, and through it all France remains France. America under a completely different system of government would remain America. America **divided into independent countries** would remain one American **nation,** if not state, just as China has remained the same nation throughout all of **its** periods of political division. So, do you disagree with my conclusion, or just the reasoning I used to arrive at it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/82 "2013-01-11T19:38:18Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, do you disagree with my conclusion, or just the reasoning I used to arrive at it? The conclusion – because you seem to think large numbers of first-generation immigrants are some kind of **threat** to our national identity. That is not true. It is true that they can never really be **part** of it, even if legally naturalized as citizens – but, their children can, being born and raised here is all it takes, regardless of whether their parents ever became citizens or not. They will speak American English and their cultural worldview, political and otherwise, will be American – maybe with some ethnic-group variations, but essentially American. Look, immigrants come to America from different countries all over the world – so, when they get here, the American culture they are trying to join is the only one they all have in **common.** They’re never going to turn America into New Arabia or New Africa or New China or New New Spain or whatever. The melting pot always worked before, no reason to suppose it’s about to stop working now. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/83 "2013-01-11T19:57:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The conclusion – because you seem to think large numbers of first-generation immigrants are some kind of **threat** to our national identity. That is not true. It is true that they can never really be **part** of it, even if legally naturalized as citizens – I would say they _could_ be a threat under certain circumstances. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > …but, their children can, being born and raised here is all it takes, regardless of whether their parents ever became citizens or not. They will speak American English and their cultural worldview, political and otherwise, will be American – maybe with some ethnic-group variations, but essentially American. This, I agree with and have noted in the thread. Assimilation works. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, immigrants come to America from different countries all over the world – so, when they get here, the American culture they are trying to join is the only one they all have in **common.** They’re never going to turn America into New Arabia or New Africa or New China or New New Spain or whatever. I want to believe you, because New Arabia, Africa, China, and Spain sound rather awful. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The melting pot always worked before, no reason to suppose it’s about to stop working now. Unless there is a level at which it breaks down. Otherwise benign policies and trends can become harmful when taken to extremes: taxation, for example. Now I want to know what the peak percentage of Americans who were foreign-born was, and when it occured (discounting the earliest years of the union, of course). Off to do research. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/84 "2013-01-11T21:06:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Unless there is a level at which it breaks down. Otherwise benign policies and trends can become harmful when taken to extremes: taxation, for example. I agree with this and I’m sympathetic to the “200 million Chinese immigrants all at once” argument. However, I think it’s better to err on the side of morality, and let in all comers. If it starts causing “Chinese invasion” level problems (which I highly doubt), I think we would have enough forewarning to adjust our policies then. Until that day, Mexicans are people too and we should let them be Americans if they want. Today. Not ten years, ten thousand dollars and countless hours spent on bullshit paperwork IF you happen to meet some bullshit qualifications later. It doesn’t matter if they have a degree, speak English or apply for patents. If they’re human and want to be American, they have my stamp of approval. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/85 "2013-01-12T14:18:33Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I agree with this and I’m sympathetic to the “200 million Chinese immigrants all at once” argument. > > However, I think it’s better to err on the side of morality, and let in all comers. If it starts causing “Chinese invasion” level problems (which I highly doubt), I think we would have enough forewarning to adjust our policies then. > > Until that day, Mexicans are people too and we should let them be Americans if they want. Today. Not ten years, ten thousand dollars and countless hours spent on bullshit paperwork IF you happen to meet some bullshit qualifications later. It doesn’t matter if they have a degree, speak English or apply for patents. If they’re human and want to be American, they have my stamp of approval. True, policies could be adjusted if problems became evident. I’m also in favor of reforming and streamlining the naturalization process. I’ve completed my research, the peak percentage of Americans who were foreign-born was 14.8%, and it occured in 1890. The figure for 1870 was 14.4%, and 1910 was 14.7%. All figures from [this study.](http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0029/twps0029.html) So, that gives me some kind of baseline for a cap, knowing that 14.8% was assimilated successfully. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/86 "2013-01-12T16:29:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So, that gives me some kind of baseline for a cap, knowing that 14.8% was assimilated successfully. Just out of curiosity, what would unsuccessful look like? The only legitimate worry I can think of would be for another more populous country (China, India) to plan an “invasion of immigrants” to take us over from the inside. A form of [Entryism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entryism), which I think would be pretty obvious and easy to stop if it were happening. Otherwise, it sounds like people are afraid of all that icky foreign culture polluting our country, like seeing minarets in your town and hearing your neighbor speak Spanish (Irish cops and Chinese restaurants were once included in this category, too\*). Well that is pure xenophobia. I’m not necessarily blaming anyone in this thread, but xenophobia seems to be the driving influence behind any sort of restrictions on immigration. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/87 "2013-01-12T16:41:36Z")
- And [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mortar_of_Assimilation_Citizenship_1889.jpg) is the yucky Irishman who won’t mix in the Mortar of Assimilation, from 1889. Now we’re worried about those damn Mexicans. Xenophobia is still alive and well in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/88 "2013-01-12T17:00:37Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what would unsuccessful look like? Unsuccessful, to me, would be the loss of the values I articulated earlier. It would manifest primarily through changes to the law and possibly the Constitution. > [@DrCube](#): > > The only legitimate worry I can think of would be for another more populous country (China, India) to plan an “invasion of immigrants” to take us over from the inside. A form of [Entryism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entryism), which I think would be pretty obvious and easy to stop if it were happening. I hadn’t thought of that; I suppose it’s possible, though difficult to organize and conceal. My concerns are based on no such organized effort. > [@DrCube](#): > > Otherwise, it sounds like people are afraid of all that icky foreign culture polluting our country, like seeing minarets in your town and hearing your neighbor speak Spanish (Irish cops and Chinese restaurants were once included in this category, too\*). Well that is pure xenophobia. I’m not necessarily blaming anyone in this thread, but xenophobia seems to be the driving influence behind any sort of restrictions on immigration. Oh, sure. There are lots of reason people favor restriction immigration. Some of them are valid, others are understandable (xenophobia) but invalid, and others are not understandable (racism) and invalid. > [@DrCube](#): > > - And here is the yucky Irishman who won’t mix in the Mortar of Assimilation, from 1889. Now we’re worried about those damn Mexicans. Xenophobia is still alive and well in the US. That image always amuses me, the little Irishman looks _so_ evil. Note that I’ve said that assimilation works and always has amongst all national origins, my concern is that it may stop working at a certain threshold. This may or may not be the case, it’s not something can be readily confirmed by experimentation. The keystone of my concerns is that I regard the United States as an oasis, a fragile bastion of the ideals I hold to, vastly outnumbered by nations espousing contrary ideals. I want to protect my oasis at all costs. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/89 "2013-01-13T06:37:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If this was serious, I think you’re way off base with this idea. I am using the absurd to illustrate my point. You cannot just throw people in jail and not feed them. So an arbitrary sentence means committing to that much food and health care and etc that could be spent on Americans. Unless of course you want to open special prisons just for illegal immigrants. They could be treated like dirt, exploited for all they are (not) worth and summarily executed for minor offenses. Perhaps they could toil under a banner with an inspirational slogan on it, something like “work will set you free”. Start doing that and you will see illegal immigration drop to nothing. But again, I’m illustrating with the absurd. For a real, practical solution, put them back in Mexico as close to the day they cross as possible and make sure they land in a Mexican jail when they get home. Also, serious question here, if you had to choose between a slum in Mexico or a jail in the US, which would you rather spend five years in? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/90 "2013-01-13T07:03:41Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > - And [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mortar_of_Assimilation_Citizenship_1889.jpg) is the yucky Irishman who won’t mix in the Mortar of Assimilation, from 1889. . . . Hey, that’s Pat Buchanan’s grandpa! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/91 "2013-01-13T07:09:10Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what would unsuccessful look like? [Saudi Arabia,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saudi_Arabia) I suppose. > [@](#): > > Saudi Arabia’s population as of the April 2010 Census was 27,136,977: 18,707,576 Saudi nationals and 8,429,401 non-nationals.[1] And, as I understand it, **all** of those non-nationals are permanent guest-workers with no hope of citizenship. (For what citizenship is worth in a country where nobody has the vote anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/92 "2013-01-13T07:18:53Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Also, serious question here, if you had to choose between a slum in Mexico or a jail in the US, which would you rather spend five years in? The slum, absolutely. And I’ve been in both. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/93 "2013-01-13T08:55:26Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The slum, absolutely. And I’ve been in both. Fair enough. I’d love to hear more as to why. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/94 "2013-01-13T19:50:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And, as I understand it, **all** of those non-nationals are permanent guest-workers with no hope of citizenship. (For what citizenship is worth in a country where nobody has the vote anyway.) Theoretically, the King can grant citizenship to non-nationals for “service to the kingdom”. There was an Indian army officer who was offered citizenship in the 1980s for training Saudi tank crews or something like that, but his name (and citations) escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323/95 "2013-01-13T21:57:36Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Unless of course you want to open special prisons just for illegal immigrants. They could be treated like dirt, exploited for all they are (not) worth and summarily executed for minor offenses. Perhaps they could toil under a banner with an inspirational slogan on it, something like “work will set you free”. Paging Sheriff Arpaio! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immigration-reform/646323.md?page=4)