# Immortal Spirit? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 13, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753 "2010-01-13T03:34:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/41 "2010-01-13T20:27:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Self-awareness arises at a certain level of intelligence, though. You can’t have one without the other. How do we know that? You’re going from a sample size of one. (One species, that is.) For that matter, how do you know that no other animals are self-aware? Maybe some are, but lack the tools to tell us about it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/42 "2010-01-13T20:33:48Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > How do we know that? You’re going from a sample size of one. (One species, that is.) Because it is a moderately complex concept. You don’t need to be human level to pull it off, but it seems unlikely that a slug could. > [@tdn](#): > > For that matter, how do you know that no other animals are self-aware? Maybe some are, but lack the tools to tell us about it. Actually, some other animals appear to be self aware; some even appear to be aware that other animals have their own separate awareness, which is more impressive. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/43 "2010-01-13T20:40:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because it is a moderately complex concept. You don’t need to be human level to pull it off, but it seems unlikely that a slug could. > > Actually, some other animals appear to be self aware; some even appear to be aware that other animals have their own separate awareness, which is more impressive. I seriously doubt that a slug would, but… well, what are these other animals that you speak of? I would suspect it in animals that have been shown to have some amount of language. The ones I know of are chimps, dolphins, and prairie dogs. The first two are fairly intelligent, but I don’t know if prairie dogs are. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/44 "2010-01-13T20:42:27Z")
Yes, I think so. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/45 "2010-01-13T20:46:55Z")
I seriously doubt it, but I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/46 "2010-01-13T20:49:48Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > really, so all those supercomputers out there are self aware, huh? I don’t think so. Many computers out-think us, even 40 years ago as well. Computers can calculate faster than we can. They are not _intelligent_- they can only follow precisely worded instructions. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/47 "2010-01-13T20:58:46Z")
Der, don’t you think all the dogs that have been in the living room watching educational shows with the little kids would very quickly learn to write out with their dirty paws, 'help–I’m a damn dog, get me out of here!!!" by now if any were self aware? Many of our pets see the same language lessons our kids do, and I am quite sure chimps have been shown them as well. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/48 "2010-01-13T21:01:11Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > What was my soul doing before I was born? I had it. Pre-incarnate power my orbital death ray cannons. Your suppressed memories of this are why you’re afraid of orbital death ray cannons. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/49 "2010-01-13T21:15:43Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Der, don’t you think all the dogs that have been in the living room watching educational shows with the little kids would very quickly learn to write out with their dirty paws, 'help–I’m a damn dog, get me out of here!!!" by now if any were self aware? Many of our pets see the same language lessons our kids do, and I am quite sure chimps have been shown them as well. Several primates have learned to communicate using sign language; some of them were able to use sign language creatively, combining multiple signs to explain concepts they did not have the vocabulary for (such as “bird” + “water” for “duck”). [Washoe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_(chimpanzee)), for example. I presume you’re joking about dogs, but they simply don’t have the dexterity to spell out words using paws, even if they were intelligent enough. Quadripeds have limited range of side-to-side motion in their limbs, for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/50 "2010-01-13T21:22:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [Washoe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_(chimpanzee)), for example. I think Washoe is the chimp I’m thinking of. Not mentioned in that article is an experiment where she was put in one cage and her sister was put in an adjoining cage, but they couldn’t see each other. They both had a number of objects in their cages, identical to each other. Washoe was told something like “Tell your sister to give you the blue cup” – and the sister did. So not only can chimps learn to use human language, they already have their own. But language and self-awareness aren’t they same thing. Are they inextricably linked? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/51 "2010-01-13T21:23:37Z")
Computers can indeed talk back and answer too, but it does not mean they understand their own nature. The animals are responding to a memory lesson where they got fed treats to do this action. The computer is logic programmed to give the answer it did, neither is self aware. Do you feel your laptop has an opinion about you? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/52 "2010-01-13T21:34:42Z")
No. You continue to dodge the question: what happens when we build self-aware computers? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/53 "2010-01-13T21:35:13Z")
I can state with some certainty that my computer hates me. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/54 "2010-01-13T21:35:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Self-awareness arises at a certain level of intelligence, though. You can’t have one without the other. Nonsense. You can have increased intelligence without being self-aware. Self-awareness and increased intelligence are NOT synonymous. That’s why it’s fallacious to reduce the argument from self-awareness to just “So, because we’re more intelligent than other animals, we must have magical spirits. Got it.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/55 "2010-01-13T21:54:34Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Nonsense. You can have increased intelligence without being self-aware. You can have human levels of intelligence without being self-aware? I mean, I know some vapid high school students, but… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/56 "2010-01-13T21:55:43Z")
[Moderator Pleading]Please take the “self-aware computers” hijack elsewhere, please.[/Moderator Pleading] ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/57 "2010-01-13T21:56:45Z")
Me, dodge a question? Never. In my opinion, there will never be a self aware computer. Oh, they may be able to make one that fakes it using a logic tree. Likewise if you saw how those animals were trained to seem like they understand you would see it is just memory and “that treat tastes good” that is driving the answers. We do not know what self aware even is, logic wise, how can we program it into a machine? Draw a logic diagram explaining self awareness, like you could say addition or division or sorting things? Great idea for a thesis if you can. edit–was typing, did not know my opinion is not welcome… ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/58 "2010-01-13T22:03:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can have human levels of intelligence without being self-aware? INCREASED levels of intelligence. Not HUMAN levels. There’s a difference. Remember, your exact words were “So, because we’re more intelligent than other animals, we must have magical spirits. Got it.” It’s foolish to reduce the argument from self-awareness to those simplistic terms, and you know it. Please stop moving the goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/59 "2010-01-13T22:06:07Z")
[Moderator Warning]Take it elsewhere or recieve infractions.[/Moderator Warning] ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753/60 "2010-01-13T23:12:10Z")
Concerning the immortal part. I had an interesting conversation once with a fellow at seminary I was visiting on the nature of heaven. He contended that the soul only experiences linear time during life on earth. Upon death, the soul will join with the hosts of all the saints on heaven, with the realization that every soul that has ever existed or ever will exist is already there, including yourself. An immortal existence in a sense, although an existence without time, unchangable. I’ve always liked that idea, since as a teen it made me think about time and god in an interesting way. anyways, I answer yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortal-spirit/524753.md?page=4)