# Immortality for sale! (well almost) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 2, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225 "2015-12-02T17:22:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/41 "2015-12-03T01:56:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I was listening to a researcher who was studying medical research announcements. She was saying how less than 1% of “breakthrough” announcements that reach regular media pan out. The chances of being in that 1% depend strongly on how far along the study process the “breakthrough” came from, eg you better be at human subjects to have a chance of being a real breakthrough. Aye. It’s what’s John Horgan calls [“ironic science.”](http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/what-is-8220-ironic-science-8221/) ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/42 "2015-12-03T02:04:37Z")
> [@Aangelica](#): > > I feel compelled to point out that people who are prescribed metformin for diabetes quite frequently make a host of other life changes simultaneous to their prescription - many of which have been linked time and again to increased lifespan. Things like “paying careful attention to a healthy diet” and “regular exercise” and the like. I see no indication (and I may be mistaken) that that study controlled for the other life changes the people prescribed metformin were encouraged to make (and quite a number of them likely did - being diagnosed with diabetes is quite often enough to shock people into a generally healthier lifestyle than they had previously). It is a STATISTICAL STUDY. However there were people with diabetes given some other drug. It is in the report. They dies faster than the control group, but shouldn’t they have been doing the “other life changes simultaneously”? However there are also the mouse and worm studies. Hey, medical science is not a perfect world. It never will be. But if better controlled experiments are done specifically for longevity and it takes 20 years and turns out positive then doesn’t that a lot of people would have wasted potential years of life. This drug is taken by 150 million people. It is not that risky and it is cheap. Is $60 per year a that much of a burden? So what is the big deal. I am more curious about how weak a dosage will have longevity effects on mice. psik ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/43 "2015-12-03T02:32:46Z")
> [@Aangelica](#): > > I can assure you I do not feel particularly immortal. We can check back in 80 years to see if I make it to 120, but it seems unlikely. > > I would also like to point out that metformin is not without side-effects, a good many of them fairly unpleasant. If it weren’t relatively effective at managing my life-threatening symptoms, I’d quit taking it immediately. My apologies for using the word “immortal”. I did not expect people to take it so seriously. Sorry about your condition. I never heard of this stuff until I saw the article a couple of days ago. But various articles say 150 million people take it around the world mostly for diabetes. Other articles mention side effects but do not say what percentage of people get them how badly. Are your symptoms worse than average or less severe, I have no idea. But I presume that a person just taking it for life extension would have to evaluate it for themselves. There might be some people, even a majority, who have no side effects whatsoever. I DON’T KNOW! But how do we find out without testing. No two people are identical. psik ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/44 "2015-12-03T02:34:02Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > So what is the big deal. If it measurably increases human longevity, it’s a big deal. If it doesn’t, it’s not. The former has not been established. Let us know when and if it is. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/45 "2015-12-03T02:34:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Did/do you do 20 minutes of exercise a day? It takes 20 minutes to take a pill? psik ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/46 "2015-12-03T02:38:34Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > It’s not a knee jerk reaction when we have heard stuff like this before. Increasing human longevity has been just around the corner. How many of these treatments have you heard about involved a medicine that has been used by millions of people for decades? And this seems to be a side effect other than what it was intended for so it was not deliberate research. psik ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/47 "2015-12-03T03:50:02Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > I never said that nor did I say it would never happen. My point is just that we will have to wait and see. > > But what do I know? I’m just a fucked up ignorant idiot who barely graduated from HS 36 years ago. You gave a bunch of examples of things that were supposedly promised but never happened (or haven’t happened yet) in an attempt to link this with those. I simply pointed out that while SOME things never happened, some did, and just as often as people predicted, incorrectly, that something would happen and didn’t there were lots of folks who predicted quite confidently that something would never happen, it has. As to the time frame, no one knows. Not everything takes a perpetual 20 years such as fusion, however…sometimes breakthroughs are made suddenly that change everything. As I said, a lot of folks are looking into this and spending huge amounts of money. There are fortunes to be made in this, quite obviously, just like there are fortunes to be made in fusion, but unlike fusion, the initial capital investment for longevity treatments or drugs or whatever, even including the R&D will PROBABLY be fairly minor (comparatively speaking and assuming it can be done and they work). Maybe something will come of it…maybe not. Maybe it will take 20 years, or 100 years…or the major breakthrough will come tomorrow or next year. You are, of course, correct…we will just have to wait and see. I simply wanted to point out that it’s not pure fantasy or something to simply be dismissed like perpetual motion machines…there are no laws of physics or biology that would be broken to extend human life. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/48 "2015-12-03T04:31:03Z")
Heck, read a ten year-old issue of _Popular Science_ and it’ll be full of seemingly awesome and world-changing ideas that never panned out, or at most did so to less-than-paradigm-shifting effect. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/49 "2015-12-03T05:17:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If it measurably increases human longevity, it’s a big deal. If it doesn’t, it’s not. The former has not been established. Let us know when and if it is. So suppose it takes 60 years of testing to determine that it increases human longevity by 20% over the time it is taken if it is started at age 20. So that would amount to 12 years of more life and with better health during those years if one of the mouse studies is indicative. So you are saying everyone should wait at least 20 years for the bureaucracies that be to make some pronouncement? If it takes 5 years to determine that it has no effect then the person experimenting on himself is out $300, assuming he didn’t stop before then because of some annoying side effect. It’s that old problem of making decisions on less than totally conclusive data. Like we won’t be absolutely sure if anthropogenic global warming will get bad enough to act on until sea level has risen at least 10 feet. Right? 🆒 psik ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/50 "2015-12-03T05:36:26Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > It takes 20 minutes to take a pill? > > psik You were talking about a mere 20 cents a day for a possible life extension. 20 minutes of exercise is free and you don’t have to go to the pharmacy. It’s a minor effort - for the longevity and health benefits you seem so keen on. Or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/51 "2015-12-03T05:49:45Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > So suppose it takes… Well, once you start an argument like _that_, you can draw any conclusion you like. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/52 "2015-12-03T06:46:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > 20 minutes of exercise is free 20 minutes of exercise is not free. Time is more important than money. When you run out of money you are broke. When you run out of time you are DEAD! That is why $60 a year is trivial if this can work. If this works then what could happen to retirement age? 😃 People living longer than they did in the 1930s is one of the problems for Social Security. psik ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/53 "2015-12-03T07:08:35Z")
I suspect that many 20 yr old women are already taking a pill every day. Maybe the experience would give the men a new perspective on life… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/54 "2015-12-03T07:21:15Z")
It’s fascinating research but to me just shows how far we still have to go. Random thing X seems to prolong the lifespan of mice for reasons unknown (if anything, it’s observed intracellular effects should reduce lifespan according to our understanding), and btw we still don’t have a consensus on which of the factors known to be associated with ageing is more critical and/or the typical causal sequence. I can remember a lot of excitement over this or that observation that seems to prolong the age of mice, and probably this one will just join that list. Human lifespan is creeping up mostly thanks to things like improved cancer therapies. But in terms of increasing the healthy period of life, hype aside, we still have nothing. If I had to bet on whether a baby born today would be able to have the body of a 30-year old when she’s 50, thanks to anti-ageing therapies…I would still give that less than even odds. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/55 "2015-12-03T12:09:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If I had to bet on whether a baby born today would be able to have the body of a 30-year old when she’s 50 Well, what if the 30 year-old is open-minded? Social changes, y’know… ---
**Author:** ![Aangelica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Aangelica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aangelica)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/56 "2015-12-03T16:02:20Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > 20 minutes of exercise is not free. Time is more important than money. > > When you run out of money you are broke. When you run out of time you are DEAD! > > That is why $60 a year is trivial if this can work. > > If this works then what could happen to retirement age? 😃 > > People living longer than they did in the 1930s is one of the problems for Social Security. > > psik I have more unfortunate news for you. Even with _good_ health insurance, in the United States, I am paying **considerably** more than $60 a freaking year for metformin. With reasonable health insurance _and_ a cost-reduction card from the manufacturer, my monthly prescription cost for metformin is $26. Without health insurance (and I know this since I had a short gap in health insurance this summer due to a change in jobs), but still with the cost-reduction card from the manufacturer, the monthly cost was $568. Without either of those, according to my pharmacy (which is a major national chain), the cost would have been just over $1,100 a month. Granted, this is only the particular dosage and formulation that works best for me (there are literally dozens of combinations of dosage and formulation), but given the constraints of my insurance carrier, I was already taking the least-expensive version of that dosage and formulation (generic if such existed). Also, I’m fairly sure you are substantially underestimating both the frequency and severity of the side effects. I cannot speak for all people taking metformin, but at least according to the small army of medical professionals I’ve had to discuss this particular topic with over the past decade, the incidence of noticeable, daily-occurrence side effects is higher than two in three patients. There is a fair bit that can be done to mitigate the side effects (dosage considerations, formulation considerations, daily routine considerations), but none of them are perfect. The most common response I’ve heard from a doctor about a side effect is “Oh, yeah - that happens a lot. Here’s what we can try.” There is a vast difference between “take this medication with nasty side effects to prevent early death from a disease you already have and if you can manage to get your symptoms under control there’s always a chance you can stop taking the goddamn shit at some point” and “take this medication with nasty side effects your whole life for sure to possibly extend your life if you don’t die of something unrelated to old age”. Most people do, in fact, die of things other than “old age”. Cardiac disease, cancer, car accidents, complications due to Alzheimers, or COPD, or liver disease, or some other random ailment. Don’t get me wrong - metformin is a great drug. I appreciate the hell out of the fact that it provides me with a major assist in managing a disease that in my particular case was looking quite likely to kill me in my 40’s if not sooner (sadly, in my case, the most noticeable symptom of my polycystic ovarian syndrome was brutally hard to control high blood pressure - in the “you’re going to stroke out” range). As far as the side effects go, the benefit is well worth enduring them.\* It’s safe for long term use, unlike many drug therapies. It is proven effective over decades of use and many, many studies, again unlike many drug therapies. It is nowhere near as expensive as many other drugs, particularly if one has reasonable insurance. I still wouldn’t take it if I had a reasonable alternate choice. \*In my particular case, there’s some evidence that the onset of menopause will reduce if not eliminate most of my life-shortening and endangering symptoms, so there’s a solid shot I’ll be able to stop taking the raft of medications I take at the moment once I start menopause. I’ve been sort of looking forward to menopause for some while now. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/57 "2015-12-04T00:21:58Z")
This seems to be getting a bit more complicated. > [@](#): > > The data does not solely involve experiments with laboratory mice that often don’t translate to humans. The data involves human studies. > > Remember the big to-do that the New York Times created in 1998 over a cancer drug that a Nobel Prize winner said would “cure cancer in two years?” (That quotation was later denied.) On the day that news story was released the stock price soared for the company making the developmental drug then said to cure cancer. But for metformin, a drug first approved by the FDA in 1958, there is little fanfare. Its patent expired years ago and it is a generic drug with low profitability. A quick check on Google shows just six news outlets online are distributing the story. Of the 7 billion people on the planet, how many will learn of this? > > If this were some potential new blockbuster drug, the National Institutes of Health would be grandstanding it in a press release and even a press conference. Instead it is a news agency – in this instance Bloomberg News – who is independently breaking the story (let’s hear it for a free press). Bloomberg reporters quote a researcher who says drug companies passed up sponsorship of studies involving metformin and cancer when they realized their patents would expire before the research study was completed. > > Slow progress > > Frustratingly, science is moving too slowly towards adoption of such a pill. It wants to conduct another decade of research before drawing any conclusions. A number of large long-term studies are underway but not scheduled to report any data till 2016-2017. > > Cancer patients haven’t ten years to wait. Whether oncologists begin to prescribe it is another question. It isn’t being heralded in oncology journals. The American Cancer Society website is ignoring this breakthrough as well. > > How convincing is the evidence? Very. > > Just how convincing is the currently available evidence? First, diabetics have a much higher incidence of cancer. So it should not be surprising that an anti-diabetic drug quells cancer. > > Second, the risk of subsequent cancer diagnosis was significantly reduced among patients with adult-onset diabetes who took metformin. The most compliant patients were more protected against cancer than those who failed to follow their pill regimen. Another study shows an impressive 56% relative reduction in the risk for breast cancer among diabetics taking metformin compared to other anti-diabetic drugs. > > Researchers recently explored a database of thousands of diabetic subjects in Tayside, Scotland. Cancer was diagnosed among 7.3% of 4.085 metformin users and 11.6% of 4,085 non-metformin users. Metformin users tended to develop cancer almost a year later than non-users. > > The study that has gained much attention involves metformin among patients with pancreatic cancer, a dire form of cancer where survival following diagnosis is usually no greater than 1-2 years. Metformin produced a significant 60% relative reduction in ongoing risk for pancreatic cancer among patients already diagnosed with the disease. > > Another compelling report published in 2009 showed that among 2,529 patients who underwent chemotherapy for early-stage breast cancer, 24% of the patients who were taking metformin experienced a “complete response” (cure) compared to just 8% in the non-metformin group. > **[What May Become the World's First Proven Cancer Preventive (and Something...](https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/10/bill-sardi/what-may-become-the-worlds-first-proven-cancer-preventive-and-something-bigger-ignored-by-bigpharma/)** > > by Bill Sardi Recently by Bill Sardi: Your Money: Slip Sliding Away It is not surprising to learn that Big Pharma has shown no interest in what may become the world's first proven cancer prevention pill. If big profits aren't promised, pharmaceutical... psik ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/58 "2015-12-04T01:40:49Z")
_“There’s no documented validity to any life-extension strategy, but that hasn’t deterred the making, selling, and buying of countless longevity creams, potions, and pills. For $36.95 you get a one-month supply of micronized Longevinex™ capsules, “designed to help Americans live longer.” For $39.95 you get 120 ml. of Clustered Water™, a solution of water organized into clustered structures that ostensibly rejuvenates interstructural cells. For $159 you get 0.7 fluid ounces of Rejuvity’s Ageless Renewal Serum™, containing a specially formulated concentration of Repair-Plex™. Unfortunately, once you start using it, you shouldn’t stop: “If discontinued, then the aging process of the skin simply continues,” explains the website. The fine print on such products can be a great way of pushing more product.”_ > **[Live forever! Can science deliver immortality?](https://www.salon.com/2013/08/18/live_forever_can_science_deliver_immortality/)** > > In labs around the world, researchers are trying to reverse aging. Does the latest research suggest breakthroughs? Obviously you should take advantage of all these pills and products. In 100 years you can be laughing at all the dead Dopers who doubted you! ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/59 "2015-12-04T04:05:02Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > _“There’s no documented validity to any life-extension strategy, but that hasn’t deterred the making, selling, and buying of countless longevity creams, potions, and pills. For $36.95 you get a one-month supply of micronized Longevinex™ capsules, “designed to help Americans live longer.” For $39.95 you get 120 ml. of Clustered Water™, a solution of water organized into clustered structures that ostensibly rejuvenates interstructural cells. For $159 you get 0.7 fluid ounces of Rejuvity’s Ageless Renewal Serum™, containing a specially formulated concentration of Repair-Plex™. Unfortunately, once you start using it, you shouldn’t stop: “If discontinued, then the aging process of the skin simply continues,” explains the website. The fine print on such products can be a great way of pushing more product.”_ > > [http://www.salon.com/2013/08/18/live\_forever\_can\_science\_deliver\_immortality/](http://www.salon.com/2013/08/18/live_forever_can_science_deliver_immortality/) > > Obviously you should take advantage of all these pills and products. In 100 years you can be laughing at all the dead Dopers who doubted you! Do you pay attention to the dates of the stuff you link to? That one is August 2013 This one is July 2014: > [@](#): > > Can people with type 2 diabetes live longer than those without? A comparison of mortality in people initiated with metformin or sulphonylurea monotherapy and matched, non-diabetic controls > > ``` > C. A. Bannister1,2, S. E. Holden1,3, S. Jenkins-Jones3, C. Ll. Morgan3, J. P. Halcox4, G. Schernthaner5, J. Mukherjee6 andC. J. Currie1,3,* > > ``` > > Article first published online: 31 JUL 2014 [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/dom.12354/full](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/dom.12354/full) :smack: So your article could be totally correct for the time it was written. It might even still be correct in that none of the scientific articles are really making claims for longevity IN HUMANS. I am simply saying this drug is relatively safe and has done lots of human testing FOR DIABETES, it just seems to have an interesting “side effect” which at leasts requires further study. But that could take YEARS. psik ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immortality-for-sale-well-almost/739225/60 "2015-12-04T05:25:06Z")
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