I was referring to the “point” you inexplicably felt it necessary to bring up, namely
“there have been contagious vaccines.”
To repeat, that is of zero relevance to a discussion of Covid-19 vaccination, and has very little to do with vaccine safety in general.
Ah. I was replying to a post before that about how no vaccine would be approved if it gave someone covid. A vaccine was approved that actually did give people polio. And it was an excellent vaccine that helped save the world from polio.
And i mentioned in the same post that no covid vaccine can do that.
But okay, sure. I did say that.
Mostly, I’m frustrated with what i feel is a punitive attitude towards people who did something bad and allowed themselves to get sick. I’d prefer that if we regulate access to public venues based on propensity to catch or spread a horrible disease we do that based on the actual risks of someone doing so.
I was also frustrated when the CDC said, “if you are vaccinated you don’t need to wear a mask” (rather than, in communities with less community spread than X you don’t need to wear a mask) which many people praised as “you need a carrot to encourage people to be vaccinated”.
I don’t know whether you were vaccinated. I don’t want you taking off your mask as a “reward”, i want us to use masks where they will help protect us.
I think what many others are frustrated with is people with a lackadaisical attitude towards people who refused to vaccinate, and as a result cause others to get sick and die. I know you yourself are not one of these people with this attitude, but as mentioned above, you seem to be inadvertently giving ammo to those who are.
I think everyone is pretty much on the same page otherwise.
There’s nothing particularly lackadaisical about this. I can’t force someone to get vaccinated.
The thread is about whether or not a covid survivor’s immunity should be taken into consideration. Most everybody agrees that it exists so now it’s just a matter of documenting the science behind it. A lab report showing antibodies is far more legitimate than an easily forged vaccine card. It’s proof that the antibodies exist which more than anyone can say about a vaccine card. It proves nothing.
It has nothing to do with socially engineering public behavior and it certainly isn’t going to change anti-vaxer’s minds. That’s what funerals are for.
This is purely an academic question I put forward and doesn’t require any parsing of words or a bunch of “what-ifs” to suit an opinion. Should a lab report showing antibodies legally count as a vaccination. Any argument regarding a fade of immunity can be answered with a future lab report.
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I would argue that a lab report that just says “yes/no” should not count, because it gives no indication of the date of infection, nor the level of antibodies, nor the expected level of antibodies in three months. A report that gives a numerical level, that’s dated, probably should count – it should be counted comparably to the typical levels of antibodies from an n-month-old vaccination.
I’m much more comfortable counting a documented infection, because it has a well-defined date attached to it – like a vaccination.
Yes, I think we will eventually switch from the idea of “full vaccination” (which looks to be 3 doses of mRNA, fwiw) to “vaccination is current”.
No, but by restricting what the unvaccinated can do, you can strongly encourage it. Take vaccine mandates for healthcare and police jobs – initially, lots of people said they wouldn’t get vaccinated, that they would rather quit. But, when it really came down to getting fired or getting vaccinated, nearly everyone chose vaccination.
If you can’t go out to dinner or see concerts, it will encourage you to get vaccinated. I wish there was a vaccine mandate for domestic flying, just like there is effectively for international flying.
I understand the science that says that a recent case of COVID is equivalent to a recent vaccination, but this disease isn’t standing still. Boosters will be necessary (are already necessary). Rather than giving the anti-vaxxers an out from being vaccinated, I’d rather see more pressure put on people to get vaccinated. That way, we all know when they got the shot, how strong the shot is, what strains it’s effective for, and so on.
All of that is leaving aside the problem with the inevitable COVID parties.
I disagree strongly.
I could craft up a believable looking lab report showing antibodies in half an hour, using nothing more than MS Word. There is no national or even state standard for lab reports. The minute you accepted these, there would be a cottage industry providing them on demand for $5.
OK, take the healthcare people who stood on the front lines before the vaccine and got COVID and the immunity that came with it. Instead of letting science validate their immunity you’re happy with a loss of medical staff.
I gotta say, I’m dubious about the value and effectiveness of medical staff who don’t want to take vaccines. I’m sympathetic to hospitals who don’t want to lose their janitorial staff due to a vaccine mandate (i know of one such hospital not too far from here) but doctors and nurses? Seriously? What other weird medical ideas do they have?
And they really need “as much immunity as possible”. They are literally on the front lines. We know they will be exposed, and that they’ll also be in contact with vulnerable people who don’t have covid
They should get paid time off for any vaccine side effects. That’s much easier to mandate for hospital employees than for “everyone”, which includes self-employed and people who work for tiny shops. But they should get the damn vaccine.
They should ALSO be regularly tested.
In the mean time they’re asking hospital workers in California to come to work with asymptomatic covid because of staffing shortages.
It’s not like I don’t agree with the sentiment behind your post Puzzlegal. But reality and science ought to at least attempt to walk down the same road. If Hospital workers can show a test of antibodies then that should be taken into account. Otherwise the “as much as possible” could be the 10 different vaccines on the market plus boosters until the end of time. It’s just a matter of someone making it law.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
I hope they are restricting those people to work in the covid ward. Because if someone is exposed to covid while getting chemo for their deadly cancer, the odds are the covid will kill them before the cancer would have.
And yes, hospital workers routinely need to get a new flu shot every year. If we get covid boosters regularly, they should be getting those, too.
I think that’s a high bar for “eat in a restaurant” for a number of reasons, but i think it’s a completely reasonable requirement for healthcare workers.
Staff who got it back in early 2020 are probably barely protected at this point, so yes, they should definitely get the vaccination. Otherwise, they will end up like those hospital workers in California who have to go to work with asymptomatic COVID, except they probably won’t be asymptomatic, they may be taking up a bed themselves.
There is no scientific reason not to get the vaccination even if you have had COVID. Healthcare workers who don’t want to get vaccinated are obviously anti-science idiots who shouldn’t be healthcare workers anyway. Do they even understand the germ theory of disease? Do they understand evolution? They obviously don’t understand statistics.
In order for that to be true you would have to test for antibodies.
I have never seen a study where vaccination following infection didn’t 1) increase antibody titers, 2) improve effectiveness of virus neutralization, and 3) reduce reinfection in the real-world.
that has nothing to do with what I said.
I’ll offer this yet again:
What will those quote-unquote anti-vaccine health care workers do when their antibody levels drop below a protective level ?
Will they then get a booster ?
Seems highly unlikely/counter-intuitive since we all know that convalescent immunity plus a vaccine confers the best immunity, and … they still seem unwilling to take the vaccination ??
You know that there are varying levels of antibodies, right? It’s not all-or-nothing.
There’s been a ton of studies where they tested for antibodies before and after immunization.
Most vaccine studies find that vaccines increase the level of antibodies in people who had prior antibodies. Look at any of the booster studies, or heck, the initial studies of two-dose vaccines, or the studies that found that prior infection plus immunization produced the highest level of antibodies.
I’ve heard that if you recover from covid, you should ideally wait at least 4-8 weeks after you get better to get a booster, so your immune system recognizes two separate events.
So I would support health care workers waiting to get a booster. But not forgoing a booster.
Well now were back to getting all 10 vaccinations and a never ending booster shot. How high is up in this scenario?.
If someone who has had covid shows more anti-bodies than someone who has had all the mandated shots then who has more protection?