# Immunity antibodies: An "all-or-nothing" thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 8, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008 "2018-04-08T00:42:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/1 "2018-04-08T00:42:51Z")
I was doing some reading about anti-sperm antibodies (ASA) - antibodies produced against sperm if sperm accidentally gets into the bloodstream, such as via testicle injury or whatnot - and apparently such ASAs might only reduce your fertility somewhat, or can make you all but infertile - there’s a wide range of what it will do to you. This surprised me since I thought antibodies are basically produced to kill everything of something. If you have a cold, for instance, won’t your body keep producing antibodies until it detects no more cold viruses in the body? So I wondered, as long as you have sperm in your body (even in the testicles or vas deferens where it belongs,) once your body has decided to go anti-sperm and produce ASAs, won’t it keep manufacturing them until you are totally sterile? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/2 "2018-04-08T01:55:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > … I thought antibodies are basically produced to kill everything of something. … That was a mistaken thought, especially in the context of what are called “autoantibodies” - antibodies against parts of self. The antibody response working in conjunction with the rest of the immune system, is often enough to clear cold viruses and the like, but often the response is not, be it against non-self (chronic Hepatitis B or C infection, HIV, HPV …) or self (auto-immune thyroiditis, celiac disease, diabetes, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/3 "2018-04-08T01:57:33Z")
At least with some kinds of antibodies, they are produced in proportion to the system’s gauge of the threat level. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/4 "2018-04-08T03:01:34Z")
The main part of the picture that you’re missing is that the testes are an immune privileged site. In some parts of the body, T-cells are excluded by a physical barrier, or through other mechanisms the immune response is suppressed. > **[Immune privilege](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_privilege)** > > Certain sites of the mammalian body have immune privilege, meaning they are able to tolerate the introduction of antigens without eliciting an inflammatory immune response. Tissue grafts are normally recognised as foreign antigen by the body and attacked by the immune system. However, in immune privileged sites, tissue grafts can survive for extended periods of time without rejection occurring. Immunologically privileged sites include: > Immune privilege is also believed to occur to some extent or... Mature sperm are not present early in life when the adaptive immune system learns tolerance for “self” antigen. That’s why the testes _need_ to be an immune privileged site - sperm would otherwise always be perceived as non-self and produce an adaptive immune response. So that’s why anti-sperm antibodies usually only develop when sperm infiltrate somewhere they shouldn’t be inside the body, such as the bloodstread. And the immune privileged status of the testes is the reason that these antibodies will still not mount a full-fledged reaction against sperm inside the testes. > **[Testicular immunology | Immune privilege in the testis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testicular_immunology#Immune_privilege_in_the_testis)** > > Sperm are immunogenic - that is they will cause an autoimmune reaction if transplanted from the testis into a different part of the body. This has been demonstrated in experiments using rats by Landsteiner (1899) and Metchinikoff (1900), mice and guinea pigs. The likely reason for this is that sperm first mature at puberty, after immune tolerance is established, therefore the body recognizes them as foreign and mounts an immune reaction against them. Therefore, mechanisms for thei The two main f... ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/5 "2018-04-08T03:28:41Z")
So **Riemann** , parts of the body subjected to auto-antibodies that are not similarly immune privileged are all subject to full fledged reactions that completely destroy the organ involved? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/6 "2018-04-08T04:07:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So **Riemann** , parts of the body subjected to auto-antibodies that are not similarly immune privileged are all subject to full fledged reactions that completely destroy the organ involved? No, we are not seeing a full immune response in most autoimmune disease, but for different reasons. Other autoimmune diseases are not quite the same, in the sense that they affect tissues for which there _should_ be tolerance as “self”, since the tissue was present when central tolerance was established. Our understanding of why most autoimmune diseases occur is partial at best. Mature sperm are unusual in that they are not present in the body when central tolerance is established, so they do require special treatment. Anywhere outside of the priviliged site of the testes, I believe sperm do generate just as strong a response as you’d get with a truly foreign antigen. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/7 "2018-04-08T04:53:27Z")
The point is to correct the op’s misperception that antibody response is “and all or nothing thing”. It is not. Including to non-self in which long term stalemates sometimes occur. As to the specific of sperm … you seem to be saying that the level of anti-sperm antibodies in those who have it are much higher than the levels of anti-thyroid antibodies, etc., (due to a lack of exposure when central tolerance was formed), and that the lack of complete infertility is exclusively because of its protected location status … I am honestly doubtful of that claim. Do have any sources for relative antibody levels? Even the protected location seems to be questionable as [anti-sperm antibodies are found in the semen](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165037810003888). ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/8 "2018-04-08T05:36:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The point is to correct the op’s misperception that antibody response is “and all or nothing thing”. It is not. Including to non-self in which long term stalemates sometimes occur… I’m not disputing that, very little in biology is all-or-nothing. I simply pointed out that the testes are an immune privileged site, which is the most important factor in this case in limiting the immune response. T-cells and antibodies are not excluded from the testes, immune privilege involves other processes than just physical barriers and exclusion to suppress the immune response. And obviously there is _some_ immune response taking place, or presumably there would no effect on fertility. I linked above to the Wikipedia article on testicular immunology, which discusses what we know quite extensively, well beyond both of our levels of expertise. If you want to dispute what it says there… you will have to find an expert immunologist. > **[Testicular immunology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testicular_immunology)** > > Testicular Immunology is the study of the immune system within the testis. It includes an investigation of the effects of infection, inflammation and immune factors on testicular function. Two unique characteristics of testicular immunology are evident: (1) the testis is described as an immunologically privileged site, where suppression of immune responses occurs; and, (2) some factors which normally lead to inflammation are present at high levels in the testis, where they regulate the developmen... ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/immunity-antibodies-an-all-or-nothing-thing/812008/9 "2018-04-08T06:01:48Z")
[Programmed Cell Death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmed_cell_death_protein_1) is a mechanism that dampens the immune system response and is important in regulating and preventing autoimmune disorders. When I was given a PD-1 inhibitor (as part of a chronic viral disease treatment trial), the following inflammatory response markers _could have been_ an autoimmune reaction triggered by the PD-1 inhibitor - instead, it was evidence that my immune system was fighting the virus for harder and longer than previously, and my immune system was able to clear the viral illness after decades of stalemate.