# Impact of Trump's Executive Order to Stop Splitting Up Families **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476 "2018-06-20T23:04:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/181 "2018-06-22T13:27:00Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … The issue that we are addressing is that persons arriving on our southern border, whether they’re arriving 100% legally, or whether they’ve crossed into the U.S. in between ports of entry and then turned themselves in (a misdemeanor, but hardly a big deal), or whether they’re trying to get into the interior unnoticed - all of these people are being detained _indefinitely_. … They’re being detained until their court case can be resolved, and presumably if guilty any sentence completed. If they’re illegal, at that point they’ll probably be deported. That’s not “indefinitely”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/182 "2018-06-22T13:28:24Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > That Emma Lazarus, what an asshole, amiright? No worse than Willie Nelson: > [@](#): > > Give us your tired and weak and we will make them strong. > Bring us your foreign songs and we will sing along. > Leave us your broken dreams we’ll give them to mend. > There’s still a lot of love living in the promiseland. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/183 "2018-06-22T13:36:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They’re being detained until their court case can be resolved, and presumably if guilty any sentence completed. If they’re illegal, at that point they’ll probably be deported. That’s not “indefinitely”. > **[Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/indefinitely)** > > The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years! > [@](#): > > not clearly defined or determined; not precise or exact: …would you care to share with us the exact length the process you describe will take? Two weeks? Two months? Two years? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/184 "2018-06-22T13:50:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > [Indefinitely Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/indefinitely) > > …would you care to share with us the exact length the process you describe will take? Two weeks? Two months? Two years? Your cite has another definition for “indefinitely”: “unlimited”. That’s what I understood RTFirefly to mean and what I was objecting to. If instead he merely meant that we don’t know “the exact length the process”, then consider my objection withdrawn. We don’t, and that’s no more of a concern for me than my not knowing “the exact length of the process” when I get pulled over for speeding. It could be ten minutes, or twelve, or six. It won’t be forever. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/185 "2018-06-22T14:25:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, you gotta give me Cuba, given the regime’s reputation for imprisoning, torturing, and killing people who try to escape: > > [http://www.cubauncensored.com/the-escape-cubans-escaping-from-cuba/](http://www.cubauncensored.com/the-escape-cubans-escaping-from-cuba/) > > It doesn’t specifically say they were shot, but if they’ll torture you when they catch you, it’s logical to assume they’ll shoot you to stop you if you refuse to halt. You’ve got a grand total of three out of the 100 countries that you offered as a majority(out of 195 total) so far. I said I had all day, but it’s becoming rather obvious that your claim that “In most of the world’s borders, they will shoot you if they catch you trying to cross and you don’t halt when ordered” isn’t backed up by the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/186 "2018-06-22T14:29:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your cite has another definition for “indefinitely”: “unlimited”. That’s what I understood RTFirefly to mean and what I was objecting to. If instead he merely meant that we don’t know > “the exact length the process”, then consider my objection withdrawn. We don’t, and that’s no more of a concern for me than my not knowing “the exact length of the process” when I get pulled over for speeding. It could be ten minutes, or twelve, or six. It won’t be forever. Trump twittered this morning that the Republicans should put discussion about immigration on hold until after the November elections. If this happens then far too many children are going to be lost in the system. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/187 "2018-06-22T14:32:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’ve got a grand total of three out of the 100 countries that you offered as a majority(out of 195 total) so far. I said I had all day, but it’s becoming rather obvious that your claim that “In most of the world’s borders, they will shoot you if they catch you trying to cross and you don’t halt when ordered” isn’t backed up by the facts. I, for one, am shocked. I thought for sure there would be a list of countries provided when I woke up this morning. It’s almost like that was a made up fact used to try to make an incorrect point. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/188 "2018-06-22T14:37:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your cite has another definition for “indefinitely”: “unlimited”. …of course it does. Words have multiple meaning. To determine the meaning, we examine the context. > [@](#): > > That’s what I understood RTFirefly to mean and what I was objecting to. If instead he merely meant that we don’t know “the exact length the process”, then consider my objection withdrawn. > > We don’t, I think we do. > [@](#): > > and that’s no more of a concern for me than my not knowing “the exact length of the process” when I get pulled over for speeding. It could be ten minutes, or twelve, or six. It won’t be forever. There is an order of magnitude of difference between “six-and-twenty minutes” and “a week and two years.” Its disingenuous to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/189 "2018-06-22T15:18:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … I think we do. … I’m not following you. Is “I think we do” in reference to knowing “the exact length of the process”? Are you arguing that their detentions are not “indefinite” because we (well, you anyways), know “the exact length of the process”? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … There is an order of magnitude of difference between “six-and-twenty minutes” and “a week and two years.” Its disingenuous to pretend otherwise. I guess it’s a good thing I’m not pretending otherwise, right? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/190 "2018-06-22T15:25:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not following you. Is “I think we do” in reference to knowing “the exact length of the process”? Are you arguing that their detentions are not “indefinite” because we (well, you anyways), know “the exact length of the process”? …we do know what RTFirefly meant. > [@](#): > > I guess it’s a good thing I’m not pretending otherwise, right? It appears that you are. Not knowing if you are going to be detained for a week or two years or longer fits the definition of indefinitely detained. It is in no way comparable to a wait of between six and twenty minutes. So yes, you are pretending otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/191 "2018-06-22T16:26:39Z")
**HD** , this has got to be some of the most ridiculous wordgaming I’ve ever seen. These people might be detained for weeks, or it might be years. In any individual case, who the hell knows? Now, would something like that happen to you if you crossed the Canadian border illegally and were discovered? If so, that’s what I’m asking for a cite for. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/192 "2018-06-22T16:29:38Z")
Oh, and for those who still insist that there’s a rough equivalence between what happens to these detainees and their children, and what happens to criminals with children here in the U.S.: > [@](#): > > _I can’t understand this,_ the judge said.\* If someone at the jail takes your wallet, they give you a receipt. They take your kids, and you get nothing? Not even a slip of paper?\* [Link.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/families-will-no-longer-be-separated-at-the-border-but-where-are-my-clients-kids/2018/06/20/9d9e59a0-74b6-11e8-805c-4b67019fcfe4_story.html?utm_term=.ba5d97baa602) (WaPo.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/193 "2018-06-22T16:31:53Z")
This is akin to civil forfeiture of children. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/194 "2018-06-22T16:34:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is akin to civil forfeiture of children. In the case of civil asset forfeiture, the person forfeiting assets is usually not charged with a crime (at least in the cases that seem to be generating the most outrage over the process). In the cases of illegal border crossings, they _are_ being charged with a crime. That seems like enough of a difference that I wouldn’t agree that the one is “akin” to the other. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/195 "2018-06-22T16:37:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In the case of civil asset forfeiture, the person forfeiting assets is usually not charged with a crime (at least in the cases that seem to be generating the most outrage over the process). In the cases of illegal border crossings, they _are_ being charged with a crime. That seems like enough of a difference that I wouldn’t agree that the one is “akin” to the other. What crime have they all been formally charged with? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/196 "2018-06-22T16:37:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > **HD** , this has got to be some of the most ridiculous wordgaming I’ve ever seen. These people might be detained for weeks, or it might be years. In any individual case, who the hell knows? Is that what you meant by “indefinite detention”? That we don’t know “the exact length of the process”? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Now, would something like that happen to you if you crossed the Canadian border illegally and were discovered? If so, that’s what I’m asking for a cite for. You’re asking me for a cite about Canadian immigration policy? Why? I didn’t make any claim about Canada. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/197 "2018-06-22T16:45:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is that what you meant by “indefinite detention”? That we don’t know “the exact length of the process”? Weeks, years, potato, pohtato, huh? :mad: > [@](#): > > You’re asking me for a cite about Canadian immigration policy? Why? I didn’t make any claim about Canada. In post #180, my point was that the indefinite detention that these folks are experiencing is quite different from what would happen if one went into Canada illegally. You’re welcome to argue to the contrary. (In which case, yes, I’m asking for a cite.) But if you’re going to snipe about the meaning of ‘indefinitely’ without any particular argumentative purpose other than an extremely poor-quality attempt at sophistry, then I’m not going to engage with you any further. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/198 "2018-06-22T16:47:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What crime have they all been formally charged with? I think it’s 8 U.S.C. § 1325, but I don’t have encyclopedic knowledge of every single immigration case in the country to know, what, or if, they have “all been formally charged with”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/199 "2018-06-22T16:55:45Z")
> [@](#): > > In some cases, there’s an especially urgent need for reunifications. On Thursday morning, the cases of 17 undocumented parents were dismissed in a federal court in McAllen, Tex., a possible shift away from the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy. > > “But the children are still detained and there’s no reunification plan,” Cornelio said. [So:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/the-chaotic-effort-to-reunite-immigrant-parents-with-their-separated-kids/2018/06/21/325cceb2-7563-11e8-bda1-18e53a448a14_story.html?utm_term=.fd2c62c03cee) the charges have been dismissed against these parents, but there’s still no procedure for their getting their kids back. Yeah, it sounds _quite_ like civil child forfeiture. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476/200 "2018-06-22T16:56:52Z")
First: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In the cases of illegal border crossings, they _are_ being charged with a crime. And then: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s 8 U.S.C. § 1325, but I don’t have encyclopedic knowledge of every single immigration case in the country to know, what, or if, they have “all been formally charged with”. Seems weird to definitively state that people are being charged with a crime, and then fail to know which crime, or if they are even being charged with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impact-of-trumps-executive-order-to-stop-splitting-up-families/816476.md?page=11)