# Impeach Bush! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786 "2003-03-16T14:30:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/81 "2003-03-17T00:06:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*But you aren’t in the least disturbed by the Resident pissing all over the rest of the world and turning us into an aggressor nation. > > The conservative mind never ceases to amaze. > > \*\* Yet you still don’t have a fucking clue as to what I am disturbed by or what is in this conservative mind. So please refrain from heaping unsubstantiated assumptions upon me as 'luci has tried on Bush with this thread. If you had actually asked me what I thought on the subject, I would have taken my time to elighten you. Instead I kindly ask you to cut it the fuck out. m’kay? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/82 "2003-03-17T00:07:55Z")
And now on to **Zig** … That straw is big enough to float you mama all the way down the Big River. Probably the cite I should have used was: > **[The Washington Post: Breaking News, World, US, DC News and Analysis](https://www.washingtonpost.com/?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A35360-2003Jan23¬Found=true)** > > Breaking news and analysis on politics, business, world national news, entertainment more. In-depth DC, Virginia, Maryland news coverage including traffic, weather, crime, education, restaurant reviews and more. “US Claim on Iraq Nuclear Program is Called Into Question” With such gems as: “Bush cited the aluminum tubes in his speech before the U.N. General Assembly and in documents presented to U.N. leaders. Vice President Cheney and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice both repeated the claim, with **Rice describing the tubes as "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs.** ” “the U.N.-chartered nuclear watchdog, reported in a Jan. 8 preliminary assessment that the tubes were “not directly suitable” for uranium enrichment but were “consistent” with making ordinary artillery rockets – a finding that meshed with Iraq’s official explanation for the tubes. New evidence supporting that conclusion has been gathered in recent weeks and will be presented to the U.N. Security Council in a report due to be released on Monday, the officials said.” And the punch line… "Moreover, there were clues from the beginning that should have raised doubts about claims that the tubes were part of a secret Iraqi nuclear weapons program, according to U.S. and international experts on uranium enrichment. The quantity and specifications of the tubes – narrow, silver cylinders measuring 81 millimeters in diameter and about a meter in length – made them ill-suited to enrich uranium without extensive modification, the experts said. But they are a **perfect fit for a well-documented 81mm conventional rocket program in place for two decades**. Iraq imported the same aluminum tubes for rockets in the 1980s. The new tubes it tried to purchase actually bear an inscription that includes the word “rocket,” according to one official who examined them." (bolding gleefully added) Now, seeing as these are the very experts assigned to nuclear issues, I tend to take thier word as having some grounding in expertise, don’t you agree? Now, on to Mr. Hamza (God, I love it when they lob the floaters over the plate!) "Dr Hamza, who defected in 1994, was a senior administrator on Iraq’s nuclear weapons programme. He has been accused of making claims about programmes \*\*of which he had no direct knowledge. \*\* David Albright, a former nuclear inspector, told the Observer last year: \*\*"[Hamza’s] book is full of technical inaccuracies and there is no doubt he exaggerated his importance." \*\* (Bolding, as above) > **[All too human failings of 'human intelligence'](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/feb/06/iraq.jeevanvasagar)** > > Information from defectors, spies and prisoners may be unreliable, say experts. Let us at least note that Mr. Hamza has not set foot in Iraq for…what?..eight, nine years? A bit out of the contemporaneous, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/83 "2003-03-17T00:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > \*\*… Instead I kindly ask you to cut it the fuck out. m’kay? \*\* That’s “kindly”. Gosh, guy, what are you like when you get, like, nasty? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/84 "2003-03-17T00:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > But they are a perfect fit for a well-documented 81mm conventional rocket program in place for two decades. Iraq imported the same aluminum tubes for rockets in the 1980s. The new tubes it tried to purchase actually bear an inscription that includes the word “rocket,” according to one official who examined them." Well, that seals it. If they were stamped ‘Rocket’, then by gully that’s what they must have been used for! After all, the Iraqis wouldn’t lie. Only George Bush lies. So tell us… Why would Iraq, already cash-strapped due to sanctions, order tubes to a much higher precision than necessary for rockets, and hence much more expensive? I find that bit of evidence to be at least as compelling as the length of the tubes or the fact that they are stamped ‘rocket’ (this ranks right up there with the ‘baby food’ factory the Iraqis showed during the gulf war, which had a hastily-stenciled sign, “Baby Food Factory” posted outside, and a bunch of boxes inside hastily stenciled, “Baby Food”). In other words, if you were trying to import tubes for a nuclear centrifuge, wouldn’t you try to disguise them somehow? By the way, the IAEA declared in 1994 that Iraq’s nuclear program was ‘totally eradicated’. It was then embarassed a few months later when Saddam’s son in law defected with documentation of a nuclear program that was not only still active, but more advanced than anyone had suspected. For example, Iraq had been using ‘short track’ enrichment which was less efficient but easier to conceal than ‘long track’ enrichment. It’s telling that you would automatically assume that George Bush is a liar, but accept the word of the U.N. inspectors as the final authority. Inspectors are accountants and technicians - George Bush has access to the entire U.S. intelligence community and its own massive technical facilities and experts. And to this day, Colin Powell still rejects the claim that the tubes are innocuous. ---
**Author:** ![Skid\_Row](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@Skid\_Row](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skid_Row)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/85 "2003-03-17T00:31:09Z")
George Whiskey BUllSHit is either a liar or incompetent. He is not a criminal and an impeachment proceding stands about as much chance as I do trying to pick-up Pamela Anderson at a Kid Rock concert. None of this changes the fact that, unless the democrats nominate Brian “Emanuel” Mitchell in 2004, Son of a Bush will go back to bankrupting corporations for a living. Let’s get the war over with and do **something** , _ **anything** _ about what is about to become a triple-dip recession! ---
**Author:** ![SpeyFly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@SpeyFly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeyFly)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/86 "2003-03-17T00:32:14Z")
Sam Stone Quote “George Bush has access to the entire U.S. intelligence community and its own massive technical facilities and experts. And to this day, Colin Powell still rejects the claim that the tubes are innocuous”. You have made a good point Sam so why is george’s evidence so weak? Maybe that he does not have the evidence. Ya think? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/87 "2003-03-17T00:35:47Z")
I don’t think his evidence is weak. I thought Powell’s presentation at the U.N. was devastating to Iraqi claims that they have no WMD left. So did the the U.N. The only people who are still arguing that Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction all seem to be on the Straight Dope board. It’s a very marginal position to take. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/88 "2003-03-17T00:43:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > [B If you had actually asked me what I thought on the subject, I would have taken my time to elighten you. \*\* Gee, you mean all the posts of yours I keep seeing where you are ‘splainin’ and defendin’ The Resident are evidence of your deep disagreement with him? Golly, the conservative mind really does confound and amaze! (Unless of course, that wasn’t you, in which case, all apologies. My memory is not quite so dangerous as once it was, and I could certainly be confusing you with some other poster with a 4 letter name that starts with S. Or maybe another poster with a 12 letter name that starts with X, who knows!) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/89 "2003-03-17T00:45:22Z")
Oh Sam, will you never tire of your “Well pretty much everybody except \* you \* knows…” refrain? Especially when you are repeatedly shown how full of shit it is? ---
**Author:** ![SpeyFly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@SpeyFly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeyFly)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/90 "2003-03-17T00:48:00Z")
Sam, what little so called evidence the US, Powell or george has produced has been disproved or subject to skepticism. Now I would call that pretty weak. To say otherwise is just plain ignorant or very uniformed. They are still trying to find the smoking gun and in regards to finding one, the White House has resorted to using plagiarized documents and or manufacturing intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/91 "2003-03-17T00:56:57Z")
I’m glad you mentioned the famous defector, **Sam** , I’d almost forgotten. But as I mentioned before, thats a bit down the list, since it doesn’t involve out and out falsehood, but just a bit of judicious editing. Simply a matter of not mentioning something that might prove embarrassing… Quite embarrassing, actually. Very embarassing, not to put too fine a point on it. In case anybody missed it: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18467-2003Feb28.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18467-2003Feb28.html) Sorry I dont have a more reliable source than Newsweek and the _Washington Post_, the _Pravda_ of the Potomoc. “…They indicated that the United States, which debriefed Kamel in Amman, may have ignored or dismissed his claims that many of Iraq’s deadliest agents had been destroyed. The defection of Kamel “should serve as a reminder to all that we often learn more as the result of defections than we learned from the inspection regime itself,” Vice President Cheney said on Aug. 26…” You tell 'em, Big Dick. "…Kamel himself suggested the U.N. inspectors were a far more useful and reliable source than Iraqi defectors. “You should not underestimate yourself,” Kamel said. “You are very effective in Iraq.” In the interview, he described one well-known defector, Khidhir Hamza, a nuclear scientist who participated in Iraq’s secret nuclear weapons program, as “a professional liar…” Oh, my. Him again. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/92 "2003-03-17T01:03:12Z")
It is? Let’s see… [Canada’s reaction:](http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/05/iraq_graham030205) > [@](#): > > Foreign Minister Bill Graham said Colin Powell set out a “convincing” account of Iraq’s efforts to thwart the inspection process for the UN Security Council. [What the public thought:](http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/powell_poll030206.html) > [@](#): > > Among those who’d watched or heard about Powell’s speech by Wednesday evening, 71 percent say he made a convincing case for war, and nearly six in 10 believe he presented hard proof, rather than circumstantial evidence, that Iraq possesses banned weapons. France said that Powell’s evidence showed the need for ‘greatly enhanced inspections’. Britain said the evidence was ‘devastating to Iraq’. Or you could just read [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2730323.stm), a summary of the reaction fo the council. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/93 "2003-03-17T01:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > And now on to **Zig** … > > That straw is big enough to float you mama all the way down the Big River. Probably the cite I should have used was: > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A35360-2003Jan23¬Found=true](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A35360-2003Jan23¬Found=true) A……….You obviously don’t know my mama. B……….This “new” site is **exactly** (as in word for word) the same as the old site, except for the inclusion of a rather embarrassing advertisement. > [@](#): > > But they are a perfect fit for a well-documented 81mm conventional rocket program in place for two decades. Iraq imported the same aluminum tubes for rockets in the 1980s. The new tubes it tried to purchase actually bear an inscription that includes the word “rocket,” according to one official who examined them." To which I (gleefully) repeat my previous quote (with gleeful bolding added): \*\* ………“Of course Iraq would not order cylinders with exact specifications for centrifuges, because such tubes would never have been shipped,” Hamza said. “This is a standard Iraqi ploy…………”\*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Now, seeing as these are the very experts assigned to nuclear issues, I tend to take thier word as having some grounding in expertise, don’t you agree? Ummm…….that’s exactly the point I was addressing when I quoted extensively from the article entitled “A senior Iraqi scientist tells how Saddam Hussein, in a decades-long quest for the bomb, systematically **hoodwinked the IAEA**.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > David Albright, a former nuclear inspector, told the Observer last year: “[Hamza’s] book is full of technical inaccuracies and there is no doubt he exaggerated his importance.” Isn’t David Albright the fellow who, back in 1991 before Mr. Hamza arrived and set him straight, wrote several [articles](http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1991/m91/m91albright1.html) indicating that, at a time when Bush I was claiming that Iraq posed a nuclear threat and when, we now know, Saddam was busily engaged in a crash program to produce a weapon within about 6 months; Iraq was “years” away from producing any nuclear weapons? (This ad hominem game is fun.) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Let us at least note that Mr. Hamza has not set foot in Iraq for…what?..eight, nine years? A bit out of the contemporaneous, don’t you think? Which means what? That Iraq has had an additional…………what………eight, nine years to perfect “hoodwinking” the IAEA? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/94 "2003-03-17T01:46:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > Or you could just read [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2730323.stm), a summary of the reaction fo the council. \*\* Got anythig more recent ? The world has had enough time since February 5th to critically evaluate Powell’s show. The continuing revelations of innacuracies and misstatements has surely had an effect on _some_ world leaders, or do you maintain that everyone is holding by their February 5 assessments ? In the words of the French Foreign Minister: > [@](#): > > "I listened with great attention to the evidence [Mr Powell] provided. It contains information, clues and questions that deserve deeper analysis… ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/95 "2003-03-17T01:53:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > "…Kamel himself suggested the U.N. inspectors were a far more useful and reliable source than Iraqi defectors. “You should not underestimate yourself,” Kamel said. “You are very effective in Iraq.” In the interview, he described one well-known defector, Khidhir Hamza, a nuclear scientist who participated in Iraq’s secret nuclear weapons program, as “a professional liar…” > > Oh, my. Him again. From **your own** cite: > [@](#): > > …U.N. inspectors have challenged the veracity of Kamel’s claims… > > …U.N. inspectors said this week that while Kamel provided valuable information, he frequently **embellished** and **lied** to enhance his reputation or to preserve illegal weapons programs… > > …He was a **consummate liar** … > > …Kamel’s suggestions that Iraq had destroyed all of its chemical and biological weapons as early as 1991 were “ **absurd**.” Oh, my. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/96 "2003-03-17T02:04:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Well, if that were all we managed to accomplish, still, it would be an improvement, would it not? > > _Look! Another windmill! Hand me that long, pointy-stick think, will you? I’ve a mission, you know_ \*\* The OP is about impeachment. My only point is that **impeachment is too blunt an instrument and it will not happen in this case.** The only way that the president can be removed other than by a rigidly scheduled election process is by being convicted of high crimes and misdemeanors, whatever they are. Simply getting everyone all het up over a preemptive war that is based on evidence that is either non-existent or tenuous at best and erecting an internal security apparatus that is hazardous to civil rights aren’t enough to do the job. That is a fundamental weakness in the system. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/97 "2003-03-17T02:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Hey what kept you? I been looking for an AdHom drive by from you for a couple pages now! Kinda weak, though, its not even marginally insulting, unless you think disliking GeeDubya somehow repesents a weakness in character. Besides, its kinda pointless, **Conan the Canadian** ’s got it pretty much covered. > > You’re slipping, m’lad. \*\* You wish. You’ll never guess where I was. Not in a thousand years. …But anyhow, as debates go, even ones tarted by you, even one’s started by you against Bush, this ones pretty week. All you’ve shown me is a couple of “bushistas,” a “report that didn’t exist,” and the old “aluminum tubes” argument. Since you’ve used each of those at least a dozen times, I’m sincerely wondering what the point is. Usually when I I see a Bush rant from you, I at least expect to see something new, but this rant appears to be wholly recycled from previous rants, and I have to say that I’m disapointed in you for pushing an inferior product. It’s like that Simpson’s episode where they just show outtakes from previous episodes. I’m used to the egregious partisan bullshit from you, but at least it was quality egregious partisan bullshit. We’ve had all kinds of important events occur over the weekend so it’s not like you can claim there isn’t any new material. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/98 "2003-03-17T02:16:51Z")
Oh, dear me. Another blistering critique from **Scylla**. However shall I go on, so devastated. Pass the popcorn. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/99 "2003-03-17T02:20:01Z")
Hey, I expect you to be big enough to take a sincere criticism. But you haven’t guessed where I was. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786/100 "2003-03-17T02:28:58Z")
Well, gee, **Scylla** , I said I was devastated. What more do you want? [Ernst Stavro Blofeld] But you intrigue me, Mr. Bond. Where might you have been that was so very unlikely… An antiwar demonstration? [/Ernst Stavro Blofeld] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-bush/161786.md?page=6)