# Impeach Trump. Now. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327 "2017-02-20T16:47:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/341 "2017-05-16T14:42:29Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Donald Trump straight up said on national television that he fired Comey in order to end the FBI investigation. That’s a damn big effort at impediment, straight from the Donald’s mouth. > > The most that Acting Director Rod Rothstein can testify to is that no one has made a direct effort to impede him, Rothstein, personally, in the couple days since he assumed the Acting Director throne. Currently Andrew McCabe is the Acting Director of the FBI. [Cite](https://www.fbi.gov/about/leadership-and-structure) > [@](#): > > Andrew McCabe was named Acting Director of the FBI on May 9, 2017. Prior to this role, he served as the FBI’s deputy director, where he oversaw all FBI domestic and international investigative and intelligence activities. McCabe is the person I cited saying, “There has been no effort to impede our investigation to date.” He references “our” investigation, not “his” investigation. He is referring the the FBI when he says “our”. [Rod Rosenstein](https://www.justice.gov/dag) is the Deputy Attorney General for the United States. The Director of the FBI [reports to](https://www.justice.gov/agencies/chart) him. He does not carry out FBI investigations. No idea who this Rod Rothstein guy is you are referring to. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/342 "2017-05-16T14:43:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If I predicted that this idiot is going to get away with all the shit he has/is/will pull off, and will fuck this country up royally and it comes true, I wouldn’t be gloating. > I would be mourning. IIRC, someone once wrote a fascinating short story with the far-out premise of JFK surviving that head wound in Dallas, but being brain-damaged by the assassination attempt – specifically, to the point where he’d blurt out stuff like the names of FBI operatives working undercover, or the classified details of CIA operations. And so Kennedy was spirited away, in a swirl of conspiracy-theory fuel – to be cared for in secret, because, well, he not only couldn’t serve as _president_ any more, but he clearly couldn’t even be _in public,_ not running his mouth like that. And if you’d said _that’s implausible, because they’d let him keep presidentin’…_ ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/343 "2017-05-16T14:49:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, then I’ll offer you a wager: By January 20, 2021, Trump is not impeached for treason or any other cause. “Impeached,” means that a bill of impeachment is passed by a majority of the House of Representatives, regardless of what happens in the Senate. > > $200 even money. > > Deal? Why are you offering me this bet? Seriously, I’m confused, counselor. Maybe you’re confusing the concepts of ‘should’ and ‘will.’ Arguing that Trump fully deserves to be impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate, and that America and the world would both be far safer and better off if he were to be removed from office by any Constitutional means, is not the same as a prediction that we will be so fortunate. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/344 "2017-05-16T14:53:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _sigh_ > > I think he should not be in office. > I think both of those statements are more likely true than not, but that neither should be an impeachable offense. Ok so do you think he should be removed from office under the 25th amendment as incapable of carrying out his duties? There is no legal judgement here, the 25th effectively gives the Cabinet and Congress the ability to remove Trump for reasons of medical or mental instability. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/345 "2017-05-16T15:15:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > \*Yes, I know, we’re not officially at war with Russia. But (a) we don’t declare war anymore, and (b) Russia is unquestionably acting in an aggressive and hostile manner towards us, seeking to undermine our alliances and the basic institutions of our democracy. Feel free to argue that that doesn’t mean they’re our enemy. This is bonkers. The USA has been undermining Russia, even right on direct borders, since the fall of the Soviet Union. The USA just never, ever stops with this shit. You really have to be totally soaked in US corporate media to even get close to this position. You think this stuff was a one-off, consider the arrogance of someone so unworried who would be listening: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/2QxZ8t3V_bk/hqdefault.jpg "Listen: Victoria Nuland Says F\*CK The E.U. in Leaked Phone Call") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QxZ8t3V_bk) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/346 "2017-05-16T15:17:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not saying that it is a lock that Trump will be impeached, but I think the odds are decent enough that I’ll take that action. Though you’re robbing me blind with this even odds nonsense. Be careful on that acceptance. You are leaving out resignation, by the current terms, if he resigns before he is impeached, you still lose. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/347 "2017-05-16T15:58:58Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is bonkers. > > The USA has been undermining Russia, even right on direct borders, since the fall of the Soviet Union. The USA just never, ever stops with this shit. OK, then the enmity goes both ways. [ETA: At least until Trump.] “A is the enemy of B” is buttressed rather than contradicted by “B is the enemy of A.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/348 "2017-05-16T15:59:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I certainly will be happy to return to this post at any time in the future. > > The problem is that you’re completely unaccountable. > > When I come back in 2020 and bump this thread, I’ll be accused of gloating, and asked why I don’t get a life, and why it’s so important to rub in being right. > > When I offer to wager on being right, you discover a pious objection to gambling. > > In short, you want the flexibility of tossing out garbage predictions now with zero consequence for error when they don’t come to fruition. > > Isn’t that about right? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > **I’m** completely unaccountable?! That’s amusing. **You’re** the one making all sorts of assertions backed by nothing more than being **Bricker**. > > Your self-image as Mr. Rectitude has gone to your head, and you think that because you’re Mr. Rectitude, anything you say must be true. > > Ah, more Carnac. Both of you - do not personalize your arguments in this fashion. Dial it back or take it to the Pit. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/349 "2017-05-16T16:00:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But no. I don’t think he should be impeached. I regard impeachment as an extraordinary remedy that should be used when there is clear evidence of criminal activity. I think your standard is entirely too low, because it’s apparently really hard for the president to do anything illegal. Apparently giving confidential secrets to a hostile foreign actor is “legal” for the president. Apparently using his office to enrich his businesses and granting positions to his relatives is “legal” for the president. Apparently firing the guy investigating you, then flat-out admitting that it’s because you didn’t like his handling of his investigation of you is “legal” for the president. Perhaps more importantly, it ignores that the erosion and destruction of democratic norms doesn’t usually happen via illegal actions. Erdogan didn’t break the law. Orbàn didn’t break the law. Chavez supporters broke the law, but it mattered far less than what Chavez did _within_ the law. The things that kill democracies are legal. Things like laws discouraging voting. Things like weakening watchdogs, stuffing them with lackeys, or ignoring them outright. Things like the denigration of norms in government, exploiting imperfect systems to make governance all but impossible, then changing the rules as soon as they’re in power. Any of that sound familiar? I think it sounds pretty familiar. [Experts on authoritarianism were _freaking the fuck out_ over Trump firing Comey](https://www.vox.com/world/2017/5/11/15611346/comey-trump-russia-authoritarianism). Comey’s firing, these political scientists say, fits a pattern that’s very common in democracies that collapse into authoritarianism in the modern era. It’s not that the elected leaders in these countries set out to become an authoritarian, per se. It’s that they care about their own power and security above all else, and do things to protect their own position that have the effect of removing democratic constraints on their power. One of the first steps in this pattern is weakening independent sources of power that can check the executive’s actions. Like, say, the director of your domestic security service who just happens to be investigating your administration’s foreign ties. It’s doubly terrifying when you consider that Trump has called for an investigation into widespread voter fraud and claims to think that there were _millions_ of fraudulent votes, which is about as far off the mark from what we actually know about voter fraud as the claim that millions of people die due to vaccine complications each year. And keep in mind, at the moment, the checks on Trump’s actions have to come _entirely_ from the republican congress. The same republican congress whose response to the firing of Comey was, “Why does anyone care about this?” ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/350 "2017-05-16T16:04:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is bonkers. > > The USA has been undermining Russia, even right on direct borders, since the fall of the Soviet Union. The USA just never, ever stops with this shit. Whataboutism is irrelevant here. Historically the US has been allied with NATO and the major non-NATO allies: > **[Major non-NATO ally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_non-NATO_ally)** > > A major non-NATO ally (MNNA) is a designation given by the United States government to countries that have strategic working relationships with the U.S. Armed Forces while not being members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). While the status does not automatically constitute a mutual defense pact (as would be the case through NATO membership) with the United States, it does confer a variety of military and financial advantages that are otherwise unobtainable by non-NATO countries... Clearly Russia’s interests do not align with NATO and the MNNA countries and the major intelligence agencies world wide agree that Russia has been trying to interfere with elections and are funding right wing populist parties. I don’t care that every country has done similar things, I’d much rather live in one of the above countries than Putin’s Russia, so I know for sure I’m not on Russia’s side. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/351 "2017-05-16T16:07:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You realize we send American astronauts into space on Russia rockets, right? No need to get stuck on declarations of war, since we can look at whether we are engaged in armed conflict against the Russians. We are not. Short of nuclear war, they can’t do that much to us by force of arms. So Putin’s wisely chosen a different battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/352 "2017-05-16T16:09:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, then the enmity goes both ways. [ETA: At least until Trump.] > > “A is the enemy of B” is buttressed rather than contradicted by “B is the enemy of A.” They’re our enemy, but we [imported almost $1.7B worth of goods](https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4621.html) from them in March of this year? And exported over half a billion dollars in good to them? Nope. Not buying it. Which treason case in the last, say, 100 years involved a country that most resembles Russia as “the enemy”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/353 "2017-05-16T16:09:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And keep in mind, at the moment, the checks on Trump’s actions have to come _entirely_ from the republican congress. I don’t think this is remotely accurate. The Judiciary has done plenty of “checking” of Trump’s actions so far. States and municipalities have opposed some of his actions, and he’s received plenty of opposition from assorted federal agencies. And the voters get a chance to give him and his party a mid-term report card in a little less than 18 months, which, if it’s unfavorable, which will give him significant opposition. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/354 "2017-05-16T16:10:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Both of you - do not personalize your arguments in this fashion. Dial it back or take it to the Pit. > > [/moderating] I guess I did step over the line. My apologies, and I will dial it back. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/355 "2017-05-16T16:16:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, then the enmity goes both ways. [ETA: At least until Trump.] > > “A is the enemy of B” is buttressed rather than contradicted by “B is the enemy of A.” It really doesn’t. Americans are whipped into an on going state of war anxiety by a ridiculous corporate media while most of the word worries about Dancing with the Stars - I don’t think you appreciate how far out of the international mainstream you are being pushed by your own media. This bogus creation is literally the only way to validate the USAs insane military. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/356 "2017-05-16T16:18:13Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think your standard is entirely too low, because it’s apparently really hard for the president to do anything illegal. Apparently giving confidential secrets to a hostile foreign actor is “legal” for the president. Apparently using his office to enrich his businesses and granting positions to his relatives is “legal” for the president. Apparently firing the guy investigating you, then flat-out admitting that it’s because you didn’t like his handling of his investigation of you is “legal” for the president. > > Perhaps more importantly, it ignores that the erosion and destruction of democratic norms doesn’t usually happen via illegal actions. it’s interesting to me that Bricker has made the argument that voter ID laws are perfectly good because he values the appearance of uncorrupted Elections so highly it’s perfectly acceptable if there’s no evidence of fraud. However he does not hold the president of the United States to even close to the same standards. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/357 "2017-05-16T16:20:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They’re our enemy, but we [imported almost $1.7B worth of goods](https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4621.html) from them in March of this year? And exported over half a billion dollars in good to them? > > Nope. Not buying it. Russia is an important EU trade partner. I have no idea how it’s possible to think of Russia as an ‘enemy’. FFS, it makes less sense than ‘socialized medicine’. And as for Russian interference for which there is zero evidence, wtf was Obama doing with his high office/profile statements about Brexit and later the French election. Jesus wept. Get a grip people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/358 "2017-05-16T16:24:47Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > it’s interesting to me that Bricker has made the argument that voter ID laws are perfectly good because he values the appearance of uncorrupted Elections so highly it’s perfectly acceptable if there’s no evidence of fraud. However he does not hold the president of the United States to even close to the same standards. For generally the same reason that I insist a basketball team can’t get three points unless the ball passes through a tiny hoop and is shot from behind the line, yet a football team gets three points for getting the ball anywhere between those huge uprights. The two situations describe different frameworks. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/359 "2017-05-16T16:28:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not saying that it is a lock that Trump will be impeached, but I think the odds are decent enough that I’ll take that action. Though you’re robbing me blind with this even odds nonsense. Done. This bet settles on January 20, 2021, or sooner if the House passes any article of impeachment by majority vote. $200 from me to you if the House does; $200 from you to me if we reach January 20, 2021 without it happening. Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327/360 "2017-05-16T16:29:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For generally the same reason that I insist a basketball team can’t get three points unless the ball passes through a tiny hoop and is shot from behind the line, yet a football team gets three points for getting the ball anywhere between those huge uprights. > > The two situations describe different frameworks. Right. Because confidence in the Democracy only exists in a polling booth, but not the actual office. Keep telling yourself that. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeach-trump-now/780327.md?page=19)