# Impeachment proceedings...will they happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 19, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795 "2019-04-19T23:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/61 "2019-04-21T00:05:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Oh, good grief. Trump and Fox and the GOP _will try to label the Dems in nasty ways!! **Oh noes!!!** _ > > Trump and Fox and the GOP are going to do that sort of shit, no matter what. And if the Dems live their lives in fear of how they’ll be labeled if they do this or that, then they’re going to be worse than useless on pretty much every level. …today in Fox News: > [@Fox News](#): > > Embattled US Rep. Ilhan Omar tweets ‘happy Passover’ > > MINNEAPOLIS – U.S. Rep. Ilhan Omar is wishing “happy Passover” to Jews commemorating the holiday in her home state of Minnesota and around the world. > > Omar is a Somali American and one of the first Muslims elected to Congress. She’s been criticized for remarks in recent months on Israel, Jewish influence in Washington, and 9/11 that have drawn accusations of anti-Semitism and insensitivity. She says criticizing the Israeli government is not anti-Semitic. > **[Embattled US Rep. Ilhan Omar tweets 'happy Passover'](https://www.foxnews.com/us/embattled-us-rep-ilhan-omar-tweets-happy-passover)** > > U.S. Rep. Ilhan Omar is wishing "happy Passover" to Jews commemorating the holiday in her home state of Minnesota and around the world. It really is time to stop allowing Trump and Fox and the GOP to control the narrative. They will spin the narrative if the Dems do impeach and they will spin it if they don’t. Its how propaganda works. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/62 "2019-04-21T00:07:17Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Oh, good grief. Trump and Fox and the GOP _will try to label the Dems in nasty ways!! **Oh noes!!!** _ > > Trump and Fox and the GOP are going to do that sort of shit, no matter what. And if the Dems live their lives in fear of how they’ll be labeled if they do this or that, then they’re going to be worse than useless on pretty much every level. Yes. > [@carlb](#): > > I’ve been in the “don’t file articles of impeachment” camp for a while, mostly due to a lot of what’s been already discussed; it will be spun out as purely partisan, the Senate will never convict, etc. I’ve come around lately to the notion that Trump _ **should** _ be impeached, mainly for two reasons: > [ol] > [li]Every bit of bad governance, incompetence, mendacity, lying, etc. needs to be laid out in one place for all to see. Mueller got a piece of it, the House Intelligence, Ways and Means, and Oversight Committees are likely to uncover more pieces, and journalists will continue to do their part. But I think, for the good of everyone, it needs to all be laid out in one cohesive narrative, in the full light of day, for every citizen to see. And the President needs to be questioned, under oath, about all of it. Show him for the unethical moron he is.[/li][li]Not impeaching sets a terrible precedent. Donald Trump is as impeachment-worthy an office-holder as the Presidency has ever seen. To, “leave it to the voters,” effectively takes impeachment out of consideration for future misdeeds, short of actual murder. We have to have _some_ standards of ethics and good governance, and the President needs to be held accountable, even if the eventual outcome is not what he deserves.[/li][/ol] And yes. So well said. Let the Republicans try and defend against the actual facts. Frankly, I think they’re shit scared of having to do that. There are no reasonable defenses, and they know it. I see desperation in every narrative they’re trying to advance. My best understanding of the main reason Speaker Pelosi and others have been reluctant to proceed with impeachment is their very real concern that it will leave the nation divided for a generation or longer. I’m afraid that has already happened. It won’t be better or worse because Dems roll over and refuse – again – to go on the offense. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/63 "2019-04-21T00:16:50Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > People are asking that other people put aside their own emotional needs and instead consider what is best for the country. …I haven’t made any argument about “emotional need.” My argument is entirely based on what I consider is best for the United States of America. > [@](#): > > I feel that emotional tug toward seeing “Trump Impeached” emblazoned in the headlines. I feel righteous indignation about Trump. > > But I disagree that the righteous indignation felt by activists (and others of us who are paying attention) should be the paramount consideration. I disagree that being able to say ‘I am standing up for Right’ is the paramount consideration. Here is what Elizabeth Warren has said about impeachment: > [@Elizabeth Warren](#): > > The severity of this misconduct demands that elected officials in both parties set aside political considerations and do their constitutional duty. That means the House should initiate impeachment proceedings against the President of the United States. That isn’t **righteous indignation.** That is a statement about what she considers to be her **constitutional duty**. If you want to argue with people expressing righteous indignation then go find those people and argue with them. Because that isn’t the reason I’m in favour of impeachment. > [@](#): > > For me, getting Trump out of the Oval Office is the paramount consideration. Its of paramount consideration to me as well. > [@](#): > > I actually follow Kendzior, and am aware that she anticipates years of Trump. > > There are people whose livelihoods depend on there being a reason for a Resistance. Perhaps these are not the most reliable advisers for those who want to actually _oust_ the autocrat. This is lame. Implying “Kendzior is in this for the money.” That she doesn’t really want to “_oust_ the autocrat” because that will cut off her income stream. Do you really believe that? You claim you follow her, but you think her abject terror at what many more years of Trump will do to America is all pretend? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/64 "2019-04-21T00:39:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Oh, good grief. Trump and Fox and the GOP _will try to label the Dems in nasty ways!! **Oh noes!!!** _ > Trump and Fox and the GOP are going to do that sort of shit, no matter what. And if the Dems live their lives in fear of how they’ll be labeled if they do this or that, then they’re going to be worse than useless on pretty much every level. Of course Fox et al are perfectly willing to make stuff up. Of course they are in the business of saying ugly things, and will never cease doing so for any reason whatsoever. But the ugly things will have some basis in truth if Dems put all efforts into a doomed show trial, and that’s bad for Democratic turnout in 2020. Why should voters turn out for pols so stupid that they threw away their chance at victory for a self-indulgent exercise in futility? Impeachment makes sense in one and only one circumstance: **if twenty GOP Senators start to fear they will lose their seats if they vote to protect Donald Trump.** _And this is not impossible._ What it will take is NOT: [ul] [li]Democratic posturing about Doing What’s Right[/li][li]Democratic posturing about If We Don’t Impeach This Guy, Who WOULD We Impeach?[/li][li]Democratic speeches about how unprecedented Trump’s conduct is [though it is][/li][li]Democratic speeches about how awful Trump is [though he is][/li][li]Lengthy hearings emphasizing Trump’s lies and evasions[/li][li]Lengthy hearings emphasizing Trump’s attempts to save himself from accountability[/li][li]Lengthy hearings emphasizing Trump’s bullying[/ul][/li] _ **None of those things bother the voters who put those GOP Senators into office in the least**._ It is utterly pointless to prioritize messaging on these points. Mention them, sure—but expect it to change the minds of the voters we need to reach–the GOP ones who need to call their GOP senators and say ‘deep six this guy if you want my vote’? No. What Democrats SHOULD do, to get 20 GOP senators to start to fear for their seats if they vote to acquit Trump, is: [ul] [li]Emphasize Trump’s servile, fawning, subservient, obsequious, and groveling relationship to Vladimir Putin.[/ul][/li] The voters we need calling their GOP senators to tell them “do not acquit this guy” do NOT care that Trump welcomed Putin’s help in the 2016 election. They like Putin. They admire his ruthlessness (and his whiteness). They don’t care that Trump likes Putin. **But they DO care that Trump is Putin’s bitch.** So far they’ve been able to ignore this clear fact. FoxNews never mentions it, of course, and the few pieces of evidence they’ve been exposed to can be rationalized away. But Mueller’s report contains evidence that should be emphasized and pounded and shouted and repeated and explained and reiterated by Democrats. Hit those pieces of evidence hard. Make graphs. Show the videos: Trump’s sheepish entry into the press conference room on 16 July 2018 in Helsinki, eyes down, hangdog—clearly Vlad had just given him a dressing down (probably over Trump’s failure to get rid of sanctions). Trump beaming like a 5-year-old in the receiving line at the Paris WWI memorial when Putin appeared. And most of all, the ‘_can you believe how we are totally in control?_’ greeting between Putin and Saudi Arabia’s defacto leader Mohammad bin Salman, at the December 2018 G20 at Buenos Aires. This is the theme that will bother enough GOP voters, to make it worthwhile to impeach Trump. Because if you don’t get those twenty GOP Senators, you are just wasting the opportunity to make a real difference in this world.\* An impeachment effort that is certain to lose is the purest kind of self-indulgence there is.\* Putin & MBS celebrate their ownership of a US President: > **[Senator Says Putin and Mohammad bin Salman Own Trump](https://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-mbs-donald-trump-1239240)** > > President Donald Trump is one of the few U.S. officials who refuses to criticize the Saudi crown prince and the Russian president for violating human rights and attacking their neighbors. Trump’s just-been-scolded entrance into the Helsinki presser is about a minute 50 seconds in: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRiSbybC9yI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRiSbybC9yI) Trump’s creepy smile, November 2018: [https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/columnists/2018/11/18/vladimir-putin-uses-president-donald-trump-paris-to-help-his-cause-at-home/stories/20181117003](https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/columnists/2018/11/18/vladimir-putin-uses-president-donald-trump-paris-to-help-his-cause-at-home/stories/20181117003) Interesting on the body language of Trump, Putin: > **[Body Language Analysis №4323: Trump Putin Helsinki Summit Press Conference —...](https://medium.com/@DrGJackBrown/body-language-analysis-4323-trump-putin-helsinki-summit-press-conference-nonverbal-and-1f95a8e1625b)** > > Today in Helsinki, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin met for 2 hours and 15 minutes with only their translators present. Afterward, the two… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/65 "2019-04-21T00:41:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this. There is nothing stopping the Dems talking about the issues as well as impeaching the President. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Yes, they are if all that cable news carries 24 hours a day is impeachment. > [@](#): > > Impeachment is only part of the battle. It isn’t the entire war. It sends a clear signal: the President is not above the law. By choosing not to impeach the House will send a different signal: the behaviour of the President is normal, and acceptable. Collectively we all said “we cannot normalize the Trump presidency” a couple of years ago. Only TWO YEARS ago. Yet here we are, after being handed a blueprint from Mueller on how to impeach the motherfucker and you are all here arguing that “well, maybe we shouldn’t, because REASONS.” > > Impeaching any other President under exactly these circumstances would be considered entirely the normal thing to do. But people are asking us to reject normalcy for the sake of partisanship. Now you’re the one who making binary assumptions. The House will hold hearings every week for eighteen months. They are not normalizing any behaviors. They can go far beyond the narrow impeachment issues. This is far superior a route for getting the truth out to the public. In short, we can have the investigation and castigation of Trump while at the same time not interfering with the apotheosizing of the Democratic candidates. Win/win instead of lose/lose. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/66 "2019-04-21T01:22:26Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Yes, they are if all that cable news carries 24 hours a day is impeachment. …you say this like its a bad thing. > [@](#): > > Now you’re the one who making binary assumptions. The House will hold hearings every week for eighteen months. You’ve already made this claim. I’ve asked for the schedule, you haven’t provided it. > [@](#): > > They are not normalizing any behaviors. They can go far beyond the narrow impeachment issues. This is far superior a route for getting the truth out to the public. “Superior” is a subjective, not an objective claim. You haven’t made a case that following the route of “holding hearings every week for eighteen months” is superior to impeaching. I’m prepared to change my mind: I’ve already changed it once. But preparing and holding 72 hearings over the next 18 months instead of 1 impeachment and several other related hearings sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. > [@](#): > > In short, we can have the investigation and castigation of Trump while at the same time not interfering with the apotheosizing of the Democratic candidates. Win/win instead of lose/lose. Contextualizing this as “win/win” or “loose/loose” is the problem. We don’t know what the fuck the end game is going to be. I’m not going to predict that by impeaching Trump it will result in him loosing in 2020. But conversely you can’t predict that by not impeaching you guarantee Trump is going to loose. So we have to take that off the table. And we have to examine the decision on whether or not to impeach or not entirely on the merits of whether or not we think what Trump has done is impeachable. The decision not to impeach because it will “damage the Dems chances in 2020” is a partisan decision. And IMHO it isn’t the best decision for America. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/67 "2019-04-21T01:44:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Contextualizing this as “win/win” or “loose/loose” is the problem. We don’t know what the fuck the end game is going to be. I’m not going to predict that by impeaching Trump it will result in him loosing in 2020. But conversely you can’t predict that by not impeaching you guarantee Trump is going to loose. Got it. Your opinion is an opinion, but my opinion has to be proven or it’s not worth anything. Fortunately, I’m not taking this too seriously. I don’t want to loose my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/68 "2019-04-21T01:57:54Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > **But they DO care that Trump is Putin’s bitch.** > > So far they’ve been able to ignore this clear fact. FoxNews never mentions it, of course, and the few pieces of evidence they’ve been exposed to can be rationalized away. That’s just it. Much of their exposure of awareness to Trump’s obsequiousness toward Putin that lives in their memory banks has been due to - homophobic cartoons depicting Trump and Putin - homophobic memes depicting Trump and Putin - homophobic artwork depicting Trump and Putin - homophobic jokes about Trump and Putin - homophobic rants about Trump and Putin What of it is supposed to reach FOX viewers? If the Democrats hammer it and behave themselves, Tucker Carlson will just talk about someone in the media who is being or was homophobic. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/69 "2019-04-21T02:04:34Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Got it. Your opinion is an opinion, but my opinion has to be proven or it’s not worth anything. …that is, quite literally, the opposite of what I just said. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/70 "2019-04-21T16:16:52Z")
Given that there is 0 chance of Republicans voting to remove Trump from office, the discussion really hinges on what impeachment is going to to do voters in 2020. Broadly speaking there are three groups. The Republicans, the Democrats, and the mealy mouthed middle. The Democrats, want blood and are going to be disappointed if Trump is allowed to skate. However I think that the displeasure is most likely to make itself apparent the in the primary. This is why Warren and all of the other Dem candidates are lining up behind it. BUt as for the general, if you are rabid enough that you want a useless vote to remove Trump from office, you are probably also motivated enough to cast that vote yourself. The protest voters of 2016 have learned their lesson. If its a choice between a wimpy Dem who may as well be a Republican on one side and evil incarnate on the other they will make the right choice. As for the Republicans, Trump is their guy, but a fair number of them realize that he’s not their ideal candidate, and so may have midling enthusiasm to vote for him in November. The one way to galvanize that enthusiasm is with a partisan witch hunt in which the Dems refuse to accept the complete exoneration of the president as contained in the Mueller report and try to remove him anyway. We must defend him from this partisan coup. As for the mealy mouthed middle. They are smaller than they were but they still exist and can swing the election. They haven’t been paying too much attention, but disdaining both sides equally they can demonstrate their superiority over either side. One side says Trumps innocent, one side says he’s guilty so the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. In any case it’s all politics as usual. A set of hearings where one side is chanting witch hunt and the other side is presenting scads of evidence is just going to be tuned out in favor of speculating about Beyonce’s album. What this country needs is to get rid of all of this partisan bullshit on both sides and fix whats wrong with this country. As such, bringing for the impeachment hearings that everyone knows aren’t going to lead to actual impeachment is just the thing to prove that the Dems are just as much party before country as the Republicans. So given that hearings will have little effect on one group and a generally negative effect on the other two it seems poor strategy. Another disadvantage of running further investigations as part of an impeachment process, is that it is time limited, and inevitably ends with a victory of Trump. Since it makes no sense to impeach the president in October 2020, the hearing will have to be wrapped up long before then and after it inevitably fails to remove Trump from office, it will be really hard for the Dems to justify yet more investigations. So by the time the election rolls around they will be old news with the only thing people remembering is that it failed in the end. Far better to just continue the slow trickle of investigation and sandal coming bit by bit throughout the next 18 months. With the Democratic leadership indicating their desire to leave it up the wisdom of the American people rather than usurping that authority for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/71 "2019-04-21T19:50:56Z")
Rather than impeachment, I’d like to see several investigations, each with narrower scope: Kushner’s security clearance, campaign finance violations, perjuries by several top Administration officials, Trump finances, etc. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/72 "2019-04-21T23:09:54Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Of course Fox et al are perfectly willing to make stuff up. Of course they are in the business of saying ugly things, and will never cease doing so for any reason whatsoever. > > But the ugly things will have some basis in truth if Dems put all efforts into a doomed show trial, I’m gonna have to double down on my ‘_oh noes,_’ I’m afraid. I also disagree with your characterization of impeachment as a ‘show trial’ if the Dems have the goods on Trump. Wikipedia on ‘[show trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_trial)’: > [@](#): > > A show trial is a public trial in which the judicial authorities have already determined the guilt of the defendant. The actual trial has as its only goal the presentation of both the accusation and the verdict to the public so they will serve as both an impressive example and a warning to other would-be dissidents or transgressors. IOW, where the outcome of ‘guilty’ has been prearranged. > [@](#): > > and that’s bad for Democratic turnout in 2020. So you say. But I say the opposite is true. Who knows? > [@](#): > > Why should voters turn out for pols so stupid that they threw away their chance at victory for a self-indulgent exercise in futility? I want to meet these voters. I don’t believe they exist. It’s like saying Dem voters stayed home in 2016 because they were mad at Dems for throwing away the 2016 election by nominating Hillary. _I remember doing the time warp…_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/73 "2019-04-21T23:17:24Z")
[Brian Beutler makes a case for impeachment hearings here](https://crooked.com/articles/democrats-impeachment-mueller/). As a matter of duty, public safety, etc.: > [@](#): > > The combination of impunity from prosecution, a faithless attorney general, and a Congress that says impeachment isn’t worth it is a bit like **hanging a flashing sign outside Trump’s bedroom window that screams “YOU ARE ABOVE THE LAW.”** It tells him that no one with any power will discourage him from colluding with Russia (or the Saudis or his new best friend Kim Jong Un) to win the election just as he did in 2016. The “politically cautious” move is actually an invitation to him—to work in tandem with the next authoritarian regime that’s willing to criminally sabotage the Democrats’ eventual nominee. And on how this intersects with electoral politics: > [@](#): > > The real importance of impeachment at this point is to shelter the country from what Trump and his allies will do if Democrats remain aimless. **Democrats aren’t really buying time for themselves. They are buying time for Trump to get the GOP back on its horribly dishonest but unified message** that he has been exonerated and that the investigation itself was criminal. If Democrats don’t pull the country into a debate about impeachment, we won’t get a draw. We will get a debate about investigating the investigators and jailing Trump’s critics. Look, I want a president 46 who is good on policy and can manage a bureaucracy and not alienate foreign leaders and all those happy, positive things. I would like to see someone win this campaign “talking about the issues.” But there is just about no way that the election next year is not going to be overwhelmingly a **referendum on Trump**. He is impossible for the media to ignore, and I don’t think Obama himself, or Mayor Pete with twenty extra rescue dogs, or frickin Oprah could draw their gaze away. He won’t allow it, and the media can’t help it. And the media’s presentation is how persuadable – i.e., low-information – voters will see it. TLDR: ITMFA. He deserves it, and the politics are a net win (if only because avoiding impeachment is worse). ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/74 "2019-04-21T23:23:45Z")
I agree with those who say that impeaching him now would only increase his chances of re-election (by allowing it to be used as a campaign point after his acquittal in the Senate). However, I wouldn’t be surprised if, assuming he loses the election, they start impeachment hearings the day after the election. What would they have to lose? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/75 "2019-04-21T23:49:44Z")
If impeachment won’t fly, could we try an exorcism? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/76 "2019-04-22T00:04:15Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Not only that, but democrats don’t win win punishment and negatives on their mind. > > Two polls I heard yesterday, one from an NBC News pollster and one I saw on CNN. Among independents - which we desperately need to win in 2020 - Russia/Mueller came in between 8th and 10th in terms of importance towards 2020 vote. In the CNN one it was testing at 1%. So… How many people cared about climate change before the most recent spate of disasters, protests, and more? We’re making the mistake here of chasing politics, not leading it. Why yes, right now, Mueller isn’t seen as a big deal. _That’s fucking shameful_! The most charitable interpretation of the Muller report (that isn’t flat-out lying like Barr did) involves a president who sees himself above the law treating a hostile foreign plot to intervene in our election as an opportunity for his campaign, then doing everything in his power to cover it up, up to and including several things which are _probably_ obstruction of justice. If people don’t care about that, we need to figure out how to _make_ people care about that. Trump may be Teflon, but past a certain point it gets fucking ridiculous. Either people legitimately do not care about any scandal he’s involved in (ergo we’re basically just fucked as a country no matter what), or we need to do a better job messaging this shit. And if we can’t, well, guess who will? Here’s a recent [Fox News headline](https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/kayleigh-mcenany-mueller-probe-was-a-politically-motivated-act-against-an-innocent-president): “Kayleigh McEnany: Mueller probe was a politically motivated act against an innocent president”. Hmm. I see no way _that_ could go horribly wrong. Oh, and of course it’s [Clinton’s Fault](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/muellers-report-reveals-russia-investigation-tainted-clinton-dirt-devin-nunes). If you think that if we just let them control the narrative like that, this isn’t going to turn into “let’s go after those who went after Trump”… well, I think that level of optimism is downright dangerous and shows a serious lack of basic pattern recognition skills. In a sane world, the Mueller report would be the end of Trump’s presidency (and probably the end of his life as a free man). The fact that we live in a world that has gone batshit bonkers just means we need to work a little harder to make people grasp that. The fact that people don’t care about it right now doesn’t mean they won’t if there’s a good reason to care about it. A good reason like… Oh, I dunno… impeachment hearings. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > What comes out in the public hearings might cost him the election though. Besides, it’s Congress’ job. If Trump has done something to merit impeachment, odd as that may sound, he should be impeached. This is the other thing. If we cannot impeach Trump, then there is no possible purpose for impeachment to be part of the constitution\*. There has never been a better argument to use this tool in the history of our republic. \*I just remembered that given the opportunity Mitch McConnell would absolutely impeach the president, vice president, and however many other people it’d be necessary to impeach to put a republican back in power so this isn’t technically true. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/77 "2019-04-22T00:57:46Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > That’s just it. Much of their exposure of awareness to Trump’s obsequiousness toward Putin that lives in their memory banks has been due to > > - homophobic cartoons depicting Trump and Putin > - homophobic memes depicting Trump and Putin > - homophobic artwork depicting Trump and Putin > - homophobic jokes about Trump and Putin > - homophobic rants about Trump and Putin > > What of it is supposed to reach FOX viewers? If the Democrats hammer it and behave themselves, Tucker Carlson will just talk about someone in the media who is being or was homophobic. Excellent point about some large volume of references to Trump-and-Putin being based in homophobia. That should be pointed out to all who want to see Trump gone, and they should take a pledge to lay off that stupid and counterproductive (and ugly) approach. Trump’s subservience to Putin IS a security issue. It’s nothing to do with sexuality, and people on the left need to realize it. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > …I also disagree with your characterization of impeachment as a ‘show trial’ if the Dems have the goods on Trump. … There’s the problem. Dems do NOT have the goods on Trump so far as Republicans are concerned. Republicans see nothing wrong with lying, obstructing, and bullying. Democrats need to talk about what DOES bother Republicans, and stop being so intent on preaching to the choir. > [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > I agree with those who say that impeaching him now would only increase his chances of re-election (by allowing it to be used as a campaign point after his acquittal in the Senate). > > However, I wouldn’t be surprised if, assuming he loses the election, they start impeachment hearings the day after the election. What would they have to lose? Not a bad idea. I also favor Democrats moving forward with focused hearings, as septimus suggested. Stick it to Trump on the security issue, and the servile-to-Kremlin-wishes issue. Call for a vote of censure and get Republicans on the record as being fine with Trump’s security and servility issues. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/78 "2019-04-22T01:37:37Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > There’s the problem. Dems do NOT have the goods on Trump so far as Republicans are concerned. Republicans see nothing wrong with lying, obstructing, and bullying. > > Democrats need to talk about what DOES bother Republicans, Why? The remaining NeverTrumpers will vote against Trump anyway, and the 40% are unreachable. > [@](#): > > and stop being so intent on preaching to the choir. There I disagree. We’re in a polarized world where even Presidential elections are more about turning out those on your side than about reaching the vanishing ‘median voter.’ There’s a lot of marginal voters out there who are sure D’s IF they vote. Being the Scared Rabbit Party yet again isn’t the way to give them a reason. Then there’s the matter of Trump himself. The guy loves attacking, but he’s lousy at playing defense. Here’s an opportunity to have him playing defense for the rest of the year, and the Dems are going to piss it away. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/79 "2019-04-22T02:15:48Z")
The Republican Senate is not going to vote to remove him based on the Mueller report. Therefore, going through an impeachment trial would be a waste of time and energy. It would make us no better than Newt Gingrich. Keep hammering away at him with Congressional investigations, and force the Republicans to cast votes on strongly worded resolutions of censure. But unless one of those investigations turns up some huge smoking gun, it would be irresponsible political showmanship to go through the motions of an impeachment proceeding when the outcome is predetermined. Of course, if you can make a case that an impeachment trial would improve the Dems’ chances of winning in 2020, that would be different. But so far I’m not hearing anything that’s convincing me it wouldn’t be better to focus on issues rather than on just bashing Trump. I don’t think a trial would be likely to move public opinion much; after all, Mueller didn’t find any solid evidence of collusion, and although we all know that legally it is possible to convict for obstruction of justice even if there was no underlying crime, politically that’s a huge deal. I don’t mean to equate Trump’s offenses against democracy with Clinton’s personal sleaziness, but this argument that “He really, really deserves to be impeached, and if we have a trial, all those people who don’t currently agree will HAVE to see that we’re right!” is exactly the same line of thinking that Gingrich et al used. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795/80 "2019-04-22T03:06:45Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > The Republican Senate is not going to vote to remove him based on the Mueller report. Therefore, going through an impeachment trial would be a waste of time and energy. It would make us no better than Newt Gingrich. > > Keep hammering away at him with Congressional investigations, and force the Republicans to cast votes on strongly worded resolutions of censure. But unless one of those investigations turns up some huge smoking gun, it would be irresponsible political showmanship to go through the motions of an impeachment proceeding when the outcome is predetermined. > > Of course, if you can make a case that an impeachment trial would improve the Dems’ chances of winning in 2020, that would be different. But so far I’m not hearing anything that’s convincing me it wouldn’t be better to focus on issues rather than on just bashing Trump. I don’t think a trial would be likely to move public opinion much; after all, Mueller didn’t find any solid evidence of collusion, and although we all know that legally it is possible to convict for obstruction of justice even if there was no underlying crime, politically that’s a huge deal. > > I don’t mean to equate Trump’s offenses against democracy with Clinton’s personal sleaziness, but this argument that “He really, really deserves to be impeached, and if we have a trial, all those people who don’t currently agree will HAVE to see that we’re right!” is exactly the same line of thinking that Gingrich et al used. I’m sorry, but I can’t agree. In re: your last point, “Because it’s the right thing to do,” would NEVER have been Gingrich’s rationale. Impeach him. Even if the Senate won’t convict. Spend the political capital regardless. If you’re going to fail, at least fail with honor. Better to fail to do the right thing than success doing the wrong. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impeachment-proceedings-will-they-happen/832795.md?page=5)