# Impending US Civil War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169 "2009-12-14T01:53:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/101 "2009-12-15T12:39:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For some reason, a lot of White Nationalists these days are into Norse neopaganism. Probably because you can’t get much whiter than that . . . maybe also because Norse mythology is so violent and grim. Yes, while not suggesting that \*all \*Norse neopagans have a White Nationalist agenda, for those that do it isn’t hard work to join the dots with the Thule Society and Aryanism. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/102 "2009-12-15T14:19:02Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Not to pee on everyone’s parade, but a grand total of \*\*none \*\*of the wars/military actions anyone has mentioned thus far was preemptive, including Iraq in 2003. The invasion of Iraq was sold as preemptive, but it no such thing, it was preventative at best. God I hate when dictionary definitions are quoted, but [Preemptive](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preemptive)Bolding on the operative word mine. A preemptive war/military action is launched against a threat that is **imminent and unavoidable** , or at least is seen to be. That’s how the Iraq war was sold to the American public. Remember the often heard quote, “the smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud”? That said, I’ll concede the point, although I maintain that a person who suggested in January 2003 that Bush might bomb Iraq was no more crazy than a person who suggested he’d occupy it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/103 "2009-12-15T14:40:23Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > And??? > > There are over a million active duty military personnel. All kinds of folks in there. Not sure that means we are on the verge of civil war. I agree, but they’d be more likely to stick together than support civilians, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/104 "2009-12-15T20:57:55Z")
In movies, whenever aliens attack it seems like the military is up and running within minutes. You’d think there’d be a slight lag while everybody empties out their shorts over the fact that aliens are attacking. That must mean that the military is trained and prepared for the eventuality of an alien attack within various scenarios. So, naturally, the same would be true of civil wars and public unrests and hijacked airliners being flown toward skyscrape–oh ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/105 "2009-12-16T02:13:08Z")
I would like to praise Apollyon for post #29. We could have argued forever about where _The European Union Times_ was published. Apollyon did exactly the right thing, which was to look up who the domain was registered to. Furthermore, Apollyon then looked on Twitter to find more information about this person. That kind of research wouldn’t have occurred to me. That’s the sort of research that ought to be happening more often on the SDMB instead of endless pointless arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/106 "2009-12-16T16:57:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Of course the US Government has contingency plans for a civil war. They make plans for all kinds of eventualities that are highly unlikely. So would sending the military against Undead-Americans count as a Civil War? Remember the dead are a significant portion of our population! And I second the approval of Apollyon’s research. Hard info is always welcome. ---
**Author:** ![WPA-Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WPA-Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WPA-Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/107 "2009-12-16T18:46:32Z")
I love the comments on the web pages: > [@](#): > > TheSun says: > > Yes, there is much truth in this. I am one of those unkown to you and I await the fall of the current Government. Once the system is weakend, I will make a power grab and reform this nation in my image. I am coming for this land, your leaders bow before the great eye of my minion. > Many of you will read this and know my name. Many of you will read this and shutter. I am home, I am free. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/108 "2009-12-17T22:49:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: You do understand, don’t you, that movement conservatism is now marginal, and the GOP can come back only by distancing itself from it? I didn’t realize that… please explain? I vote the not-Democrat party … seems to me the GOP’s biggest problems arise when they abandon conservative principals. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/109 "2009-12-17T22:53:14Z")
The GOP hasn’t managed to govern according to conservative principles in 50-odd years. One wonders when they might be said to have abandoned them if they never really cared about them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/110 "2009-12-17T23:22:35Z")
_sniff_ Thank you guys. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/111 "2009-12-18T02:51:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The last four presidential assassinations which happened in times far more primitive and prone to violence than our own. If authoritarian measures than and during the wars were not that drastic why would this situation if (God forbid) happens be any different? I still remember the day Kennedy was shot. We weren’t all that primitive. From my memory, we weren’t any more violence prone either, not on the individual level at least. As I remember it, people were shocked that such things could still happen. We weren’t wearing furs and fighting cave bears, you know. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/112 "2009-12-18T02:56:18Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > with a bio that reads: “White Nationalist with Libratarian views. Proud Mother & wife. 4th Generation Floridian. Aspiring Priestess of Freyja.” White nationalist, pretending to worship Norse gods. That tells me all I need to know. A nazi. And no, I’m not Godwinizing, that’s what she is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169/113 "2009-12-18T20:39:40Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I didn’t realize that… please explain? I’m basing that opinion on what seem to be pretty solid sources: [_The Death of Conservatism,_](http://www.amazon.com/Death-Conservatism-Sam-Tanenhaus/dp/1400068843) by Sam Tanenhaus; _Newsweek_ interview [here;](http://www.newsweek.com/id/214253) GD thread [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531379) [The Pew Political Typology.](http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=949) Put all the conservative typology groups together and you still don’t have a majority. [2007 study](http://people-press.org/report/312/trends-in-political-values-and-core-attitudes-1987-2007) by the Pew Research Center showing a changed political environment more favorable to the Dems/liberals/left. [2009 study](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/political_ideology.html) by the Center for American Progress. This last one is very telling: > [@](#): > > For years, traditional public opinion polling has broken down ideology into three distinct groupings: liberal, moderate, and conservative. Based on this categorization, there has been remarkable stability in ideological orientation, with roughly one-fifth of Americans identifying themselves as “liberal” and about four in 10 classifying themselves as “moderate” > or ”conservative,” respectively, according to Gallup polling from 1992 to 2008. > > In this study, however, the electorate is broken down using a more expansive five-point scale of political ideology that reflects the variety of approaches people ascribe to today. Employing this more calibrated measure, 34 percent of the country identifies as “conservative,” 29 percent as “moderate,” 15 percent as “liberal,” 16 percent as “progressive,” and 2 percent as “libertarian.” After moderates are asked which approach they lean toward, the overall ideological breakdown of the country divides into fairly neat left and right groupings, with 47 percent of Americans identifying as progressive or liberal and 48 percent as conservative or libertarian. The rest are unsure or scattered among moderate and other approaches. > > Combining this five-point scale of political ideology with responses to the 40 specific ideological statements, the progressive leanings of the country become readily apparent. On the domestic front, after years of supply-side tax cuts, support for corporations (especially extractive oil and mining companies), and deregulation of the economy, large percentages of Americans increasingly favor progressive ideas centered on: sustainable lifestyles and green energy; public investment in education, infrastructure, and science; financial support for the poor, elderly, and sick; regulation of business to protect workers and consumers; and guaranteed affordable health coverage for every American. On the international front, the legacy of the Bush years has yielded to an American public far more interested in restoring the country’s image abroad, fighting climate change, and pursuing security through diplomacy, alliances, and international institutions than in the continued pursuit of national objectives through the sole projection of military might. > > Approximately two-thirds of Americans—reaching to 70 percent to 80 percent on some measures—agree with progressive ideas in each of these domestic and global areas (see Table 1). Important cleavages emerge in the data, however, between non-college-educated Americans and college-educated elites. Non-college Americans are more populist and progressive than elites on some measures of government and economics and much more conservative on cultural and national security measures. > > The rise of progressivism in America is reflected more starkly in direct ratings of various ideological approaches. Today, more than two-thirds of Americans rate a “progressive” approach to politics favorably, a 25-point increase in favorability over the last five years, with gains coming primarily from those who were previously unaware of the term. “Progressive” now equals ”conservative” in terms of overall public favorability (67 percent, respectively). > > The continuing strength of the conservative brand—if not all of its constitutive ideas—reflects the long-term success of the conservative movement over decades. Despite electoral setbacks and larger proportions of Americans now adhering to progressive ideas about governance and society, the conservative worldview remains appealing to many Americans and creates important cleavages in the electorate, particularly on key cultural and national security beliefs. Conservative principles about markets, spending, national defense, and traditional values enjoy residual strength and could rise in prominence depending on shifts in the economic and political environment. Conservatives may be down but they are not out of the ideology game. > > But unless and until conservatives recognize the depth of affinity between President Obama’s ideological approach and that of the American electorate, conservative ideas likely will remain in secondary status. According to this research, President Obama himself—and his ideas about governance outlined in his recent address to the joint session of Congress and his budget overview—best embodies in spirit, tone, and ideological and substantive content the emerging center spot in the American electorate today. The strong public support for President Obama reflects personal qualities and strengths that appeal broadly to Americans and genuine consensus among the public about the ideas and prescriptions necessary to navigate the country through turbulent waters. > > Notably, the ideological areas of greatest consensus among Americans are all key priorities and investment targets of President Obama: renewable energy; education, science, and infrastructure; universal health care; financial support for the least well-off; public interest regulations; and reductions in inequality financed by increased taxes on the wealthy. > > **As the “New Progressive America” report by Ruy Teixeira for the Progressive Studies Program argues, these ideological trends are likely to grow over time as particular demographic groups increase in electoral importance. A companion youth survey by the Progressive Studies Program reveals that progressive attitudes about government and economics are particularly strong among those under the age of 30, suggesting the potential for further strengthening of progressivism within the electorate.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impending-us-civil-war/521169.md?page=5)