# Implications of Drone use in U.S. Airspace **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222 "2012-02-08T19:26:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/21 "2012-02-10T02:02:50Z")
Actually fleets of drones in the American sky would be a concern, and not just from a privacy standpoint. Rather, as I understand it while the drones used by the US military can be remotely piloted, in most applications they are programmed with a predetermined flight path before takeoff and follow it no matter what. They don’t veer away from nothing. They also don’t show up on radar (though I suppose civilian ones could be equipped with transponders) and they don’t talk on the radio either. This is an issue: there have already been a few incidents of mid-air collisions and near misses in Afghanistan, where the military _should_ be paying close attention to this and coordinating flight paths. Now picture the same thing in a sky full of airliners, helicopters and private planes going every which way, none of which will be aware of how many drones are out today, where they are and where they’re going… ---
**Author:** ![Craz3d117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@Craz3d117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craz3d117)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/22 "2012-02-10T07:18:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Actually fleets of drones in the American sky would be a concern, and not just from a privacy standpoint. > > Rather, as I understand it while the drones used by the US military can be remotely piloted, in most applications they are programmed with a predetermined flight path before takeoff and follow it no matter what. > They don’t veer away from nothing. > > They also don’t show up on radar (though I suppose civilian ones could be equipped with transponders) and they don’t talk on the radio either. This is an issue: there have already been a few incidents of mid-air collisions and near misses in Afghanistan, where the military _should_ be paying close attention to this and coordinating flight paths. > > Now picture the same thing in a sky full of airliners, helicopters and private planes going every which way, none of which will be aware of how many drones are out today, where they are and where they’re going… Assuming the drone we’re referring to the MQ-1 Predator, it’s flight course can certainly be rerouted. While deemed “unmanned” each drone is actually manned by two operators on the ground, one being the sensor operator the other being a rated pilot. Between the two they are certainly completely in control of its flight route mid-flight. As far as it not showing up on radar, I’d have to disagree. While it is difficult to gauge the size of the Predator from images (due to it’s lack of cockpit), it’s about the size of an F-16. A little more slender, but it is by no means stealth. Heck, even an F-22 (a plane coated with radar absorbing material, which the Predator does not have) while maneuvering appears on radar. Regarding the use of drones within the US, as many have said, I do not see the issue. The drones, while surely unique, do not offer any new reconnaissance capabilities. If the private sector or the government really wanted to spy on you, they could do it, drones or no drones. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/23 "2012-02-10T07:24:40Z")
It does occur to me that one problem is that drones unlike human officers are potentially hackable (especially since we are probably talking about lowest-bidder technology here). You could have everything from voyeurs using them to spy to “pranksters” causing them to crash. And I do think that it wouldn’t be long before some were armed, although probably with something less powerful than a Hellfire. ---
**Author:** ![Craz3d117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@Craz3d117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craz3d117)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/24 "2012-02-10T08:03:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It does occur to me that one problem is that drones unlike human officers are potentially hackable (especially since we are probably talking about lowest-bidder technology here). You could have everything from voyeurs using them to spy to “pranksters” causing them to crash. > > And I do think that it wouldn’t be long before some were armed, although probably with something less powerful than a Hellfire. To compare the likelihood or complexity of a drone being hacked to say, a PC being hacked is silly. The networks used by the military are extremely sophisticated and would require cyber threats backed by another nation’s government to hack into them. Hacking is certainly a legitimate concern though, however it isn’t limited to drones. Theoretically an F-22 or F-35 could also be hacked for they are both fly-by-wire and require the computer to operate. Assuming drones would enter the civilian sector, the FAA would certainly have to require certain levels of network protection. But, regulated as such I suppose I would not have a problem with corporations using them. What purpose they would have for them (except for say news reporting as someone said) I cannot imagine though. Price is certainly not an issue however, with a Predator drone costing around $7 Million. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/25 "2012-02-10T12:05:01Z")
If drones entered US service, I’d expect them to be for surveillance, rather than for defense. Instead of needing to carry heavy ordinance, they’d need a battery of cameras, and possibly microphones. Surely this would drop their price tag and size drastically. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/26 "2012-02-10T13:49:22Z")
Any bets on how long it will take for passenger drones to become available for normal, civil use? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/27 "2012-02-10T14:47:00Z")
I think the main difference between helicopters and drones is you can make drones much much smaller and quieter. I’d actually like to see something like this in the hands of citizens as a check against law enforcement abuse. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Any bets on how long it will take for passenger drones to become available for normal, civil use? Passenger airplanes already have sophisticated autopilot. People just won’t get on flights without pilots. Even trains have drivers and they are on a fixed track on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/28 "2012-02-10T15:58:26Z")
> [@Craz3d117](#): > > To compare the likelihood or complexity of a drone being hacked to say, a PC being hacked is silly. The networks used by the military are extremely sophisticated and would require cyber threats backed by another nation’s government to hack into them. You’d think so, but currently the video feeds broadcast by military drones are 100% unencrypted. There’s some sound reasoning behind that design decision, and some sound one behind the current decision to slightly tweak that policy. > [@](#): > > Assuming the drone we’re referring to the MQ-1 Predator, it’s flight course can certainly be rerouted. While deemed “unmanned” each drone is actually manned by two operators on the ground, one being the sensor operator the other being a rated pilot. Between the two they are certainly completely in control of its flight route mid-flight. Like I said, most drones _can_ be remotely manned. But in practice, they often aren’t, for any number of reasons. And I’ve e-spoken with quite a few USAF pilots who are legit scared of the Global Hawk, which cannot AFAIK. ETA: oh and re: radar, it’s not that drones are stealthy per se. It’s that civilian radars and radar operators filter out a lot of data just so they don’t direct flights of geese for landing. That said, I agree it’s a minor problem if you fit the drones with active transponders, but then again that makes them easier for third parties to track and/or hack into. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/29 "2012-02-10T16:08:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And I do think that it wouldn’t be long before some were armed, although probably with something less powerful than a Hellfire. _Blue Thunder_ notwithstanding, police choppers aren’t armed are they ? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/30 "2012-02-10T17:42:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Go back to the example of the ubiquitous British surveillance camera. Do you think that’s politically feasible here in the US? If not, do you think there’s any possibility of an analogous situation here? Yes, I think it’s feasible. We already see many instances cameras installed in convenience sores, ATM’s, and parking lots being used to try to get the public to help police identity some ne’er-do-well. Cameras are set up at highway “hot spots” for traffic news. We are already close to what London has, I think. What I think would be politically unsupportable would be camera coverage extending into primarily “back street” residential areas (instead of buisness/public areas). Again, the cheaper cost of drones (vs. choppers) doesn’t concern me. Hand held cameras, or cameras mounted on ground vehicles is not a new technology. If the police wanted to spy on me, lack of drones ain’t gonna stop them, nor do I think availability of drones will make the police more inclined to spy on me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/31 "2012-02-10T20:34:55Z")
I think we’re talking past each other, **mlees**. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/32 "2012-02-10T20:48:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On the other hand, if there were extremely inexpensive videodrones that could have stations atop every tenth telephone pole (for example), and could be activated in the event of a crime in progress to track fugitives, that might be pretty great for law enforcement. The problem comes when someone enevitably decides that they should be left on all the time, “and think of all the crime we would stop then!” Then they start tracking things that aren’t crimes, but _could_ become one. Then they start tracking things that are not crimes. > [@SteveG1](#): > > Just discounting the usual political nosense, lies, halftruths, etc… We gave ummm many trillions away in the “too big to fail” Big Bailout. Supposedly all our programs are busted broke. We are supposedly broke, doomed, no money for programs. Social Security is broken. Welfare is draining us. We can’t afford to sustain unemployment, or any semblance of healthcare, or (according to some guys) ANY sort of safety net. They’re stealin’ our jerbs". > > So where is all this money for drones going to come from, and just what is it that “Big Gubmint” wants to watch so badly, and why do they want to watch whatever it is? Whose cousin or brother or crony owns the drone company? Whose state or county gets the pork barrel? WHERE DOES ALL THIS MONEY MAGICALLY COME FROM AND WHERE DOES IT GO TO? WHO ARE WE WATCHING AND WHY? > > I smell bullshit in the pile somewhere, I’m just not sure where the turd actually is. In Iowa, the plan is to replace 21 F-16s of the IANG 132nd Fighter Wing with drones. Presumably, the money would come from the funds already supporting those planes. The IANG is not happy with the plan. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/33 "2012-02-10T21:00:50Z")
> [@Craz3d117](#): > > To compare the likelihood or complexity of a drone being hacked to say, a PC being hacked is silly. The networks used by the military are extremely sophisticated and would require cyber threats backed by anothere] nation’s government to hack into them. Um, they have been hacked.The signals have been intercepted, and their computers have also been infected at least once with a [keylogger virus](http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/virus-hits-drone-fleet). And you are assuming that the cops will get what the military has and not some cheaper knockoff version. > [@Craz3d117](#): > > Hacking is certainly a legitimate concern though, however it isn’t limited to drones. Theoretically an F-22 or F-35 could also be hacked for they are both fly-by-wire and require the computer to operate. Not _nearly_ as easily since they are fly by wire, as opposed to wireless. They aren’t transmitting and receiving their control signals over the air. Quite possibly there are no connections to the system that can be used remotely, which means the only way to hack one would be to somehow get a trojan physically loaded into the plane. _Much_ harder to pull off than just intercepting a signal. > [@Craz3d117](#): > > But, regulated as such I suppose I would not have a problem with corporations using them. What purpose they would have for them (except for say news reporting as someone said) I cannot imagine though. Spying on people, or each other. Stealing industrial secrets comes to mind, or blackmail. “Tell us _X_, or your wife gets these pictures of you with Ms Smith.” And probably a lot of plain old voyeurism. There’s plenty of unscrupulous corporations & people, and it’s only logical that they’d use such technology, well, unscrupulously. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/34 "2012-02-10T21:19:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think we’re talking past each other, **mlees**. ☹ Well, I apologise if I am suffering from poor reading comprehension again. Sometimes that happens. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222/35 "2012-05-24T05:29:32Z")
While the use of drones for surveillance is slightly disconcerting, arming them with even non-lethal weapons is something I personally wouldn’t like to see happen. Or maybe since they’re just like helicopters I should have no worries. Anyway, one police department in Texas is considering such an [approach](http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/05/23/groups-concerned-over-arming-of-domestic-drones/). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/implications-of-drone-use-in-u-s-airspace/612222.md?page=1)