# Importance of magazine capacity in self defense **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300 "2013-10-15T13:14:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whiteknight](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whiteknight/32/4962_2.png) [@Whiteknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiteknight)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/1 "2013-10-15T13:14:26Z")
Without getting into my personal politics on the issue, one argument I’ve heard against limiting magazine capacities of firearms is that a self-defender might be facing multiple opponents. Can anyone point me to some cites where 16-17 rounds (for a pistol) were necessary for a would-be victim to defend themselves? How about 30 rounds? This isn’t GD and I’m not looking for debate here, just cites. ---
**Author:** ![BrickaBracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BrickaBracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrickaBracka)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/2 "2013-10-15T13:22:08Z")
> [@Whiteknight](#): > > Can anyone point me to some cites where 16-17 rounds (for a pistol) were necessary for a would-be victim to defend themselves? How about 30 rounds? To answer this question specifically, and with as much pertinence as possible - no. The answer is no. This isn’t the movies, and Rambo isn’t using a 30 round Glock to take down a platoon of would-be attackers. That doesn’t happen, so there aren’t going to be any cites for it. You’re not going to get anything that’s more than the opinion of a second-hand recounting. Just because someone “feels” like the 25 rounds they popped off helped secure their safety, it doesn’t mean we can quantify that information and compare it effectively against a 2 round encounter - because there are far too many external circumstances and unknown variables. For some relevant information that might point you in the right direction, consider [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=663387) situation, and the links in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/3 "2013-10-15T13:56:07Z")
Practice helps train for self-defense. Reloading magazines takes time out of range practice time. Smaller magazines decrease practice for self-defense. Limits on magazines harm self-defense. QED. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/4 "2013-10-15T14:42:22Z")
You’re more likely to find cites where someone failed to defend themselves after running out of ammo. [I remember this one](http://americanhandgunner.com/new-info-on-newhall/). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/5 "2013-10-15T14:59:30Z")
If you fired 6 shots and still have a problem with attackers, odds are a few more shots, or 30 more, won’t do the trick. What, you missed? Pistols shoul be considered acurate only at the short range where you feel threatened. If you can’t take out two or three attackers at close range with six shots, odds are you can’t with 10 or 30. If there are more than 3, odds are that the rest will either run or have their pistols out (and being used) by the time you get around to aiming at them, or the guy behind youw ill have already conked you. (If you fire from 25 feet away, before they get close, good luck with the self-defence claim) If youare in the typical movie situation where you are hiding behind a corner during a big shootout (Or in the movies, behind a totally non-bulletproof plaster wall, sofa or upended table) then you have watched too many movies. If they are still coming after you after 2 shots, then you are not an innocent bystander or you have watched too many movies. the only thing I can think of a 30-round clip being useful for, is to pump two dozen rounds into the perp once he’s down, thereby providing evidence the fatal shot may not have been in self-defence. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/6 "2013-10-15T15:16:17Z")
If an attacker is drunk/on drugs, multiple shots can often have little effect unless the spine, head or very major artery is hit. Even potentially fatal wounds can leave an attacker capable of mayhem for seconds to minutes. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/7 "2013-10-15T15:20:38Z")
I honestly don’t want my neighbors walking around with 30-round clips thinking they are going to be jumped by PCP-crazed attackers. Granted, such attackers do exist and are a potential problem for some people, but I think they should best be handled by professionals. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/8 "2013-10-15T15:28:26Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > I honestly don’t want my neighbors walking around with 30-round clips thinking they are going to be jumped by PCP-crazed attackers. > Granted, such attackers do exist and are a potential problem for some people, but I think they should best be handled by professionals. Fine. I am your neighbor and I will walk around with 3 ten-round magazines while thinking I am going to be jumped by PCP-crazed attackers. Feel safer? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/9 "2013-10-15T15:32:41Z")
A slight tiny bit safer. Thanks. 🙂 Imagine a world where everybody can carry just one bullet, in their pocket. We’ll call it the Fife Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/10 "2013-10-15T15:35:13Z")
[This guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York) went on the offense and killed 28 well armed people captured 132 more and took out a machine gun nest with this [6 round magazine rifle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_Enfield). Of course he did have a Model 1911 45 for backup, but still nothing near a 30 round clip. [Damn, I’d have bought those.](http://www.flickr.com/photos/popculturegeek/5851593875/) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/11 "2013-10-15T15:40:35Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > [This guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York) went on the offense and killed 28 well armed people captured 132 more and took out a machine gun nest with this [6 round magazine rifle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_Enfield). Of course he did have a Model 1911 45 for backup, but still nothing near a 30 round clip. > > [Damn, I’d have bought those.](http://www.flickr.com/photos/popculturegeek/5851593875/) That’s not remotely the same as multiple attackers in a home at very close range. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/12 "2013-10-15T15:41:29Z")
As for “how many rounds are necessary,” there’s no factual answer to this question. Way too many variables. Suffice to say, I would rather have a few rounds remaining in my magazine after a self-defense situation versus… running out of ammo. So there’s no good reason to _ **not** _ carry hi-cap magazines. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/13 "2013-10-15T15:45:44Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > That’s not remotely the same as multiple attackers in a home at very close range. The appropriate weapon for home defense is a shotgun, not a rifle or pistol with a magazine of any capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/14 "2013-10-15T15:46:18Z")
I don’t buy the multiple attacker theory, but in the heat of the moment, people may have a hard time getting rounds on target and exhaust their ammo without ending the attack. A person may also want to keep firing until they know the attacker is down. As the cop joke goes “there’s no extra paperwork for shooting them more than once.” I’m not necessarily for hi-cap mags, but it’s pretty simple to argue that it’s always better to have too much ammo than not enough. Also, 30 round pistol magazines (not clips) are long ridiculous things that stick out of the pistol and probably very few people carry them. It’s much more common for pistols to have 15 or so round hi-cap mags, which isn’t as much as it seems. So if someone has a 30 round mag for multiple attackers, yeah they’re nuts, but 12-15 is a lot more understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/15 "2013-10-15T15:48:57Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > That’s not remotely the same as multiple attackers in a home at very close range. Really, trench warfare is not remotely like a home invasion? Even when more than 28 guys are on the attack? I’m pretty sure that unless you are facing a Scarface type home invasion that your attackers are going book out of the house once you start shooting threw walls with a military assault rifle. Or once you start unloading your 1911A 45 on them. Just what are these supposive home invaders after that they will take getting shot at? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/16 "2013-10-15T15:49:59Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > The appropriate weapon for home defense is a shotgun, not a rifle or pistol with a magazine of any capacity. We have a small house, tight hallways and blind corners. I use a cane due to a smashed leg. A shotgun is not an appropriate weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/17 "2013-10-15T15:50:43Z")
There’s a passage in the last Travis McGee novel that comes to mind. He’s on a “fishing” trip to look for the bad guys, and in the bottom of his tackle box is an automatic with 12 rounds in the clip and one in the chamber. “No spare magazine. If thirteen rounds won’t do it, it can’t be done.” I think those who think dozens and dozens of rounds will change the fundamental odds of a firefight being settled by the first few shots (if not a sniper’s first shot) have drunk way, way too much Kool Aid. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/18 "2013-10-15T15:53:47Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > We have a small house, tight hallways and blind corners. I use a cane due to a smashed leg. A shotgun is not an appropriate weapon. No firearm would be appropriate in that situation. A shotgun would be a better choice than a pistol or rifle, but still not a good option. My personal choice in that case would be to use the cane as a weapon, I’m pretty fierce with a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/19 "2013-10-15T15:58:34Z")
> [@BrickaBracka](#): > > To answer this question specifically, and with as much pertinence as possible - no. The answer is no. This isn’t the movies, and Rambo isn’t using a 30 round Glock to take down a platoon of would-be attackers. That doesn’t happen, so there aren’t going to be any cites for it. While not talking about fiction, a very good metric would be what Police choose to use on a daily basis. Police regularly carry 17 round magazines. This is a balance between increased utility and weight. Consider that to stop a threat, multiple hits are usually required. Hit rate is not 100%. If your hit rate is 50%, and it takes 3 hits to stop a threat, that means for every target you need 6 rounds fired. A home invasion could easily involve 2 attackers. You’ve just run out of ammo. > [@md2000](#): > > If you fired 6 shots and still have a problem with attackers, odds are a few more shots, or 30 more, won’t do the trick. This is false. See above. More rounds available is always better, with a tradeoff for weight. > [@](#): > > (If you fire from 25 feet away, before they get close, good luck with the self-defence claim) In your home, most states offer the presumption of threat regardless of distance - though most lines of sight in a home would be less than 25 feet. Even still, this is false. See [Tueller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill). This was at 21 feet for a holstered weapon - but that distance presents a threat from any armed atttacker. The rest of your post is unsupported. > [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Granted, such attackers do exist and are a potential problem for some people, but I think they should best be handled by professionals. So if that happens, be sure to call them and wait the 5-60 minutes it takes for professionals to arrive. Good luck! > [@Whiteknight](#): > > Can anyone point me to some cites where 16-17 rounds (for a pistol) were necessary for a would-be victim to defend themselves? How about 30 rounds? Like I said earlier, looking at statistics compiled by police encounters can be quite informative. Consider[the following article](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) about the NY city police department: > [@](#): > > In such shootings, the total number of shots fired in each situation edged up to 4.7 in 2006. However, the figure is skewed by the 50 shots fired in the Bell case. Excluding that case, the average would be 3.6 shots. > > The average number of bullets fired by each officer involved in a shooting remained about the same over those 11 years even with a switch to guns that hold more bullets — as did officers’ accuracy, roughly 34 percent. This figure is known in police parlance as the “hit ratio. So police hit about 34%, and they average fire over 3 shots per encounter. > [@](#): > > In Los Angeles, which has 9,699 officers, the police fired 283 rounds in 2006, hitting their target 77 times, for a hit ratio of 27 percent, said Officer Ana Aguirre, a spokeswoman. Last year, they fired 264 rounds, hitting 76 times, for a 29 percent hit ratio, she said. Hit ratio at LA is slightly worse, but still in the neighborhood. > [@](#): > > The number of bullets fired by officers dropped to 540 in 2006 from 1,292 in 1996 — the first year that the city’s housing, transit and regular patrol forces were merged — with a few years of even lower numbers in between. Police officers opened fire 60 times at people in 2006, down from 147 in 1996. > > ¶The police fatally shot 13 people in 2006, compared with 30 people a decade before. So when they are shooting, they are fatally shooting about 20% of the time. Any way you slice it, limiting magazine capacity limits self defense. It is also true that anything that aids self defense can also aid in offense. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300/20 "2013-10-15T16:00:00Z")
My [Ruger 22/45 Target](http://www.ruger.com/products/2245/index.html?r=y) jams more when I use an extended clip. I still use the extended clip at the range and practice clearing the jams quickly. I get a lot of stovepipes with this gun. But at home I keep the standard factory clip in the gun. I don’t want it jamming when someone is coming at me. Also, it jams if I totally fill the factory clip. I have better results if I load the clip one short of filling it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/importance-of-magazine-capacity-in-self-defense/671300.md?page=2)