# Important to Me: Kuzari Principle, or Proof From Mass Revelation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743 "2010-09-06T02:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/241 "2010-11-26T17:58:31Z")
I just finished reading thru this whole thread, and I wanted to say: this is the most hysterically funny thread I’ve yet seen in my 6 years here. ---
**Author:** ![buckgully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@buckgully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buckgully)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/242 "2010-11-26T23:15:04Z")
Santa Claus is: [ul] [li]Believed in by millions. [/li][li]Commemorated not only every December, but in countless songs, books, movies, paintings, ornamental figurines, stickers, macaroni artwork, knock-knock jokes, advertisements, animatronic puppets, advertisements, television shows, advertisements, collector’s plates, jewelry, clothing, lawn decorations, ornamental lighting, etc. And advertisements. [/li][li]Miraculous (in order to do his job he has to break pretty much all that is known about physics). [/li][li]He’s been at it in his current incarnation for 201 years, and in various different forms for thousands of years before that. [/li][li]For Santa to be fake, it would require one generation to lie to the next, which, thanks to the Kuzari Princple, we know has never been proven false.[/li][/ul] I even have physical proof: In 1978 Santa gave me a Milton-Bradley Starbird electronic space transport. I still have it. It was obviously built by elves on the north pole based on the fact that it’s impossible to determine if it was built by elves on the north pole or a toy factory in Taiwan. That’s how good the elves are. Since nobody has ever proven that elves at the north pole can’t build toys that look exactly like they would if they were built in a factory in Taiwan, it must be true. Ok, I think I just convinced myself that Santa is real. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/243 "2010-11-27T00:28:59Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > Since I am fighting a war, on my own, against a brigade of “brights” I simply don’t have the time to respond to all of the points. I will try my best, however. > > 1. Diogenes: They didn’t succeed with in completely erasing the existence for Anhekantan, because he built, like many pharoah’s, many monuments about himself. Still, they almost succeeded. However, why would THEY EVEN BUILD A MONUMENT TO ISRAELIES WHO WERE THEIR SLAVES? Interestingly, there is one measly mention of the Habiru’s. Your scholars GUESS that they weren’t the Hebrews. My scholars GUESS that they were (yes, archeology is all about taking guesses). Here we have a group of people - the Habiru - and we have one stinky mention of that group. This should make your VERY WARY about using the “absense of evidence” route for disproving historical events. > > 2. Regarding “really not that bright”'s point that I haven’t shown that national hearsay can be true, I believe I did in the case of the Temple in Jerusalem. I assume you believe that there was a Temple in Jerusalem, don’t you? > > 3. Do the Irish believe that SAW fairies? Or do they believe that fairies exist? Furthermore, we know that people are capable of hallucinating. Are you claiming that the Jewish national history of 14,600 days was a hallucination, and, if so, can you please point to a large number of people that hallucinated for that long of a period of time? > > 4. This is my evidence, and I will have to repeat myself: The Jewish people believe that A) Millions of their own ancestors; B) Saw extended miracles for 14,600 days (this would negate the possiblity of hallucination; C) Which was believed to have been commemorated from the time of the miracles until today with such commandments such as Passover, Philacteries (Jews wear black boxes which contain the miraculous exodus story in it), Sabbath, Sabbatical Years; Tzitzit; Yom Kippur; The Festival of Booths; etc.; D) These commemorations are burdensome; E) The nation who believes it are moral, intelligent, genealogical and litterate. That is our evidence. This belief has never shown itself to be fallible. Therefore, we have no reason to assume that it can be falsified. None of this convinces me in the slightest. How, exactly, does a REPORT/LEGEND that the ancestors of the current Jews “saw extended miracles for 14, 600 days” NEGATE the possibility of mass hallucination (or of, more obviously, a LEGEND passed down for generations)? Who knows? What was IN that “manna” they were eating…maybe it was contaminated with ergot. How come them to see all these “miracles” during their time in the wilderness and then STOP seeing them once settled and eating other things? I’m reminded of the old joke about the woman who remembered her grandmother and mother both cutting the ends off their holiday hams and called her mom to ask why. Mom said, “Well, Grandma always did it. I’m not sure why.” So they called Grandma and asked. She said, “Well, my pan was too small for the ham the union gave us every year.” 😉 LOTS of people, even entire cultures, even very literate, intelligent cultures and people, do things for no apparent reason other than it is the way it’s always been done. Proves nothing. Ultimately, I see no point in trying to prove any of this anyway. Are we trying to “save” folks or something? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![abele\_derer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@abele\_derer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abele_derer)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/244 "2010-11-28T18:34:51Z")
I’m losing patience responding to same old errors of logic (for example, that the burden is on me to negate the possibility of hallucination for 14,600 days) and errors of fact (for example that Santa is believed to have been seen by millions). And, honestly, I don’t really care if you accept the Kuzari proof or not. Goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/245 "2010-11-28T18:38:39Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > I’m losing patience responding to same old errors of logic You owe me a new irony detector. Also, is this the third or the fourth time you’ve left for good? I’ve lost track. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/246 "2010-11-28T19:01:18Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > I’m losing patience responding to same old errors of logic (for example, that the burden is on me to negate the possibility of hallucination for 14,600 days) You have willfully ignored that there was no hallucination because there was no event. Someone said there was an event and gullible people bought into it. The fact is your religion is simply a collection of myths, it has no meaning beyond what you bring to it. If you want to believe anyway that is your choice, but don’t expect others to bow down and blindly accept utterly worthless arguments. > [@](#): > > and errors of fact (for example that Santa is believed to have been seen by millions). There is no evidence that your myth was seen by millions. Your myth is a lie told by a primitive man centuries after it was supposed to have happened. > [@](#): > > And, honestly, I don’t really care if you accept the Kuzari proof or not. Goodbye. You seem to care. I suspect it matters because you are smart enough to know that your faith isn’t really true. You need evidence so you can sublimate your intellectual resistance and accept it whole-heartedly. Except, the evidence is non-existent, so you must pretend really hard that this inept _Kuzari proof_ is real. That’s my take anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/247 "2010-11-28T19:29:54Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > I’m losing patience responding to same old errors of logic (for example, that the burden is on me to negate the possibility of hallucination for 14,600 days) and errors of fact (for example that Santa is believed to have been seen by millions). And, honestly, I don’t really care if you accept the Kuzari proof or not. Goodbye. The burden is on you to prove that anyone ever claimed to have seen a miracle at Sinai in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/248 "2010-11-29T15:48:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You owe me a new irony detector. > > Also, is this the third or the fourth time you’ve left for good? I’ve lost track. In five hundred years, the story may have grown into an account of **abele derer** repeatedly rising from the dead before an audience of billions. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/249 "2010-11-29T15:50:58Z")
> [@buckgully](#): > > Santa Claus is: > [ul] > [li]Believed in by millions. [/li][li]Commemorated not only every December, but in countless songs, books, movies, paintings, ornamental figurines, stickers, macaroni artwork, knock-knock jokes, advertisements, animatronic puppets, advertisements, television shows, advertisements, collector’s plates, jewelry, clothing, lawn decorations, ornamental lighting, etc. And advertisements. [/li][li]Miraculous (in order to do his job he has to break pretty much all that is known about physics). [/li][li]He’s been at it in his current incarnation for 201 years, and in various different forms for thousands of years before that. [/li][li]For Santa to be fake, it would require one generation to lie to the next, which, thanks to the Kuzari Princple, we know has never been proven false.[/li][/ul] > > I even have physical proof: In 1978 Santa gave me a Milton-Bradley Starbird electronic space transport. I still have it. It was obviously built by elves on the north pole based on the fact that it’s impossible to determine if it was built by elves on the north pole or a toy factory in Taiwan. That’s how good the elves are. Since nobody has ever proven that elves at the north pole can’t build toys that look exactly like they would if they were built in a factory in Taiwan, it must be true. > > Ok, I think I just convinced myself that Santa is real. Don’t forget that we have a nigh-universally familiar [account](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039628/) of Santa’s reality being officially endorsed by the United States government. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/250 "2010-11-29T16:00:08Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Don’t forget that we have a nigh-universally familiar [account](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039628/) of Santa’s reality being officially endorsed by the United States government. And how many people would you say have seen this account? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/251 "2010-11-29T16:02:08Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > I"ll give you an example. Let’s say we invent a time-machine. We don’t know whether it is accurate or not. So, we try it out. We go back in time and we see that it accurately shows that there was a Temple in Jerusalem, that there was the black death, and that there was a Second World War. > > Then, we take it back to Sinai, circa 1,300 b.c. Amazingly, we see millions of Jews leaving the split sea. I would say, “since this type of evidence - the time machine - has never been shown to be wrong I don’t feel the need to distrust it, despite the fact that the lovely Egyptians didn’t record the fact that they got their butts kicked.” > > Once I have evidence which has never shown itself to be wrong, I must surrender to the evidence. What else should I do? A simple illustration of the fallacy of your “has never been shown to be wrong” argument: 1. Two plus two equals four. 2. Barack Obama is President of the United States as the moment. 3. Solar eclipses are caused by the moon passing between the earth and the sun. With me so far? I have never shown myself to be wrong… 1. Santa Claus is real. Ergo, Santa Claus **is** real. QED. The obvious difference between the fallacious “has never been shown to be wrong” argument and the hypothetical time machine is that the latter (granting the hypothetical) can be subjected to further testing to verify that things seen by traveling back in time are not hallucinations, hoaxes, etc, but are in fact events that occurred in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743/252 "2010-11-29T16:35:18Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > This is my last post, so enjoy if for all it’s worth. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > I originially decided not to post anymore, but I came back, because Bpelta had made some interesting points that demaded a response. > > Now that I responded, I guess I will be gone for good. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > The reason why I decided not to post here anymore is not because I am bored by the topic or the fierce response that I have been getting. Rather, I am starting to realize that I am not going to convince anyone. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > I’m losing patience responding to same old errors of logic (for example, that the burden is on me to negate the possibility of hallucination for 14,600 days) and errors of fact (for example that Santa is believed to have been seen by millions). And, honestly, I don’t really care if you accept the Kuzari proof or not. Goodbye. This debate has been going around in circles for a long time and I’m tired of **abele derer** ’s habit of trying to forestall debate by declaring he will take his ball and go home. So I’m locking this thread. I will consider reopening it if a sufficient number of people are interested, or if **abele derer** decides to come back and stop with this “goodbye forever and this time I mean it!” tactic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/important-to-me-kuzari-principle-or-proof-from-mass-revelation/552743.md?page=12)