# "Impossible Bottle." How is it made? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385 "2020-05-24T14:58:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/21 "2020-05-24T23:48:28Z")
Missed the edit window, but I believe DPRK and Darren Garrison implicitly said the same thing—Clifford Stoll wrote _Silicon Snake Oil_ and is also the guy behind [kleinbottle.com](http://kleinbottle.com). If I have seen further—iff—it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/22 "2020-05-25T00:08:21Z")
BTW, his _Nova_ episode (based on his book that wasn’t an epic fail) [is on YouTube](https://youtube.com/watch?v=qubEamdc4Ng). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/23 "2020-05-25T00:30:55Z")
Wait, these are made by the same guy as the Klein bottles? And he’s SF author Clifford Stoll? I never made the connection, and I have one of his Klein bottles! ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/24 "2020-05-25T00:32:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, these are made by the same guy as the Klein bottles? And he’s SF author Clifford Stoll? I never made the connection, and I have one of his Klein bottles! No, I do not believe the guy making the “Impossible Bottles” is Clifford Stoll. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/25 "2020-05-25T01:10:39Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > No, I do not believe the guy making the “Impossible Bottles” is Clifford Stoll. I believe you’re right. I misunderstood the pronoun in Darren Garrison’s “they’re made by the guy who wrote this book,” mentally eliding Stoll with the Impossible Bottle guy. Mea culpa, and sorry for the confusion! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/26 "2020-05-25T11:00:50Z")
From what I can see, the standard way of getting big things into bottles is to dismantle them and then re-assemble them. The cards have been explained and I suspect that the padlock will slide in sideways if the shackle is removed. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/27 "2020-05-25T13:47:53Z")
Seems pretty simple to me. First, there’s probably some kind jig inserted in to the bottle to act as a form and hold the deck together in place while all it’s components are being inserted. The cellophane and box are are carefully unwrapped into their original flat template, rolled up and inserted into the jig. The seams on the bottom and sides are then glued back together. Then cards are rolled up and inserted, probably 2 (or 3) at a time along with the wide bottle mouth will minimize the “folding memory” of the cards. When all the cards are inserted, the top of the box and cellophane are glued back in place and the original form removed. The padlock and shackle will fit separately through the neck sideways and can be reassembled inside the bottle. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/28 "2020-05-25T13:50:04Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > A few things that stand out to me : > > 1. Although the bottle top has a threaded opening, a cork is used probably because a standard screw cap will not work. > > 2. The bottle has a square cross section indicating it was pressed. > > 3. The glass seems unusually thick (from the sound) again suggesting pressing. > > My guess: > > A wide mouthed big bottle was taken. With the bottle on its side, the card deck was inserted into it supported by a thick metal rod such that it did not touch the sides. > > A vacuum was then pulled in the bottle so that there is no heat transfer from the sides to the deck of cards. > > Next the bottle was pressed using heated elements press. > > IMHO, The key here is vacuum. Just like an incandescent light bulb filament could reach 2000+ F while the glass remained at 100s of F. I don’t think this would work. I think the emissivity of the glass would transfer too much heat by radiation not to destroy the cards. An incandescent light bulb would destroy itself if the filament area was much bigger, and it’s practically nothing on the scale of the glass envelope. Having a radiating source surrounding the cards would cook them. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/29 "2020-05-25T14:10:12Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I don’t think this would work. I think the emissivity of the glass would transfer too much heat by radiation not to destroy the cards. An incandescent light bulb would destroy itself if the filament area was much bigger, and it’s practically nothing on the scale of the glass envelope. Having a radiating source surrounding the cards would cook them. You maybe right but here’s my understanding : 1. Radiation heat transfer becomes significant only above ~ 1300F (~1000K). [https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/radiation-heat-transfer](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/radiation-heat-transfer) Heat transfer by radiation also follows the T^4 law (Kirchhoff’s law) and decays rapidly at lower temps. 1. Depending on the type of glass, you can have the softening point at 600-700F. [http://www.bullseyeglass.com/the-working-range-and-what-it-means-to-fusing.html](http://www.bullseyeglass.com/the-working-range-and-what-it-means-to-fusing.html) 2. I don’t think that the whole glass bottle is heated. Only the 4 plates that are used to flatten the sides and touches the sides for just enough time to reach the softening point. Again, it’s my guess. Don’t have enough cites to back it up and you are probably right. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/30 "2020-05-25T15:16:14Z")
Flattening the sides doesn’t, in itself, make the trick any easier, though. My guess would be that the bottom is cut off the bottles, the assembly is inserted whole, and then the bottom is welded back on (or whatever the proper term is for joining pieces of glass). I mean, yeah, you could assemble everything inside the bottle, but that’d be a lot more work. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/31 "2020-05-25T15:35:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > …the bottom is welded back on (or whatever the proper term is for joining pieces of glass)… That maybe true but “welding” will require a higher temperature but you could do it if you are careful enough. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/32 "2020-05-25T15:39:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > …My guess would be that the bottom is cut off the bottles, the assembly is inserted whole, and then the bottom is welded back on (or whatever the proper term is for joining pieces of glass). I mean, yeah, you could assemble everything inside the bottle, but that’d be a lot more work. I don’t think that is what’s happening and here’s why: If the creator of the object were using your “welding” method, he would insert in the bottle something much more impossible and impressive than a deck of cards. A baseball, for example. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/33 "2020-05-25T15:43:48Z")
When I was in high school, I took a trip to scientific laboratory which had its own scientific glass construction facility. They had some CNC controlled machines that could build some real fancy shit with Pyrex glass. They could make those funky spiral tube condensing glass things that you see in mad scientist laboratories. They could easily build the bottle as they could build complex cylinder in a cylinder things. They had lathe like machines that could neck off larger diameter tubes. I think The big problem here is to dissipate the heat as to not disturb the box of cards. You take the large diameter cylinder and finish the bottom using conventional techniques. You stick the box of cards into the cylinder. You stick a metal heat sink on the lower portion of the cylinder to keep the bottom cool. You stick the bottle on the glass lathe thingamajog and heat up the glass. You use a necking tool to thin the cylinder as the lathe rotates the tube. This is probably done easiest if your lathe tool is vertically oriented. The box just sits at the bottom of the bottle. ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/34 "2020-05-25T16:06:37Z")
Kind of got ninja’d. Chronos reply wasn’t there when I started typing that out. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/35 "2020-05-25T16:28:56Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > I don’t think that is what’s happening and here’s why: If the creator of the object were using your “welding” method, he would insert in the bottle something much more impossible and impressive than a deck of cards. > > A baseball, for example. > mmm I think he chose a deck of cards so that people would come up with a number of possible methods, thus increasing the intrigue. If it were a baseball, the number of possible methods would be much smaller (possibly just one), and there would not be as much intrigue. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/36 "2020-05-25T16:35:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My guess would be that the bottom is cut off the bottles, the assembly is inserted whole, and then the bottom is welded back on (or whatever the proper term is for joining pieces of glass). A localized thermal process of any kind would leave large residual stresses in the bottle. Again, the resulting stress contours are trivial to detect with polarized light. They’d show a near-discontinuity at the joint. [Here, for example, is a commercial instrument designed for just this purpose](https://at2e.com/project/plg-polarization-light-for-glass-glass-stress-viewer), complete with images of stress contours in glass. If the bottom were cut off mechanically and then bonded back on with an adhesive that matches the index of refraction for glass (as used to repair windshield chips), the resulting birefringence would still give the game away.¹ Sparky812 mentioned a removable fixture to ease assembly after insertion through the bottle’s mouth. Upon reflection, this seems the most likely method (to me, at least). ¹ For what it’s worth, I studied this technique in grad school and later put it to use in my work designing scientific instruments. We needed to verify that a fused-silica component had been properly annealed (which relieves those telltale residual stresses). Annealing requires high heat and a long, steady cooling time—so long that even a vacuum couldn’t keep the cards from being visibly scorched. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/37 "2020-05-25T16:50:56Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > A few things that stand out to me : > > 1. Although the bottle top has a threaded opening, a cork is used probably because a standard screw cap will not work. > > 2. The bottle has a square cross section indicating it was pressed. > > 3. The glass seems unusually thick (from the sound) again suggesting pressing. > > My guess: > > A wide mouthed big bottle was taken. With the bottle on its side, the card deck was inserted into it supported by a thick metal rod such that it did not touch the sides. > > A vacuum was then pulled in the bottle so that there is no heat transfer from the sides to the deck of cards. > > Next the bottle was pressed using heated elements press. > > IMHO, The key here is vacuum. Just like an incandescent light bulb filament could reach 2000+ F while the glass remained at 100s of F. If you pull a vacuum inside a bottle then heat the bottle enough to soften the glass, it’s going to collapse under the pressure of the atmosphere If you attempt to do the whole operation inside a vacuum chamber, I think heating the glass will become a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/38 "2020-05-25T17:32:54Z")
How about wrapping the deck in “[fireproof cloth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_bottle#Penny_in_a_bottle)” (whatever that is–made from asbestos?) then removing it after the heat work is done? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/39 "2020-05-25T17:38:10Z")
Oh, yeah, you could detect all manner of tampering with the glass, using polarization. But has anyone done such tests on one of these bottles? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385/40 "2020-05-25T17:41:31Z")
It would be impractical to reform that bottle using heat. It would probably waste a several bottles and the contents with failures to get one right. And there is no need since the contents can be fit in the bottle piece by piece and re-assembled there. The beauty of magic is the simplicity that tends to drive us toward complicated explanations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/impossible-bottle-how-is-it-made/854385.md?page=3)