# Improve school curriculum, introduce programming at early age, cognitive biases, philosophy, etc... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392 "2019-11-14T01:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/21 "2019-11-14T15:29:03Z")
My shop teacher in junior high made us buy all of our shop supplies with checks. That’s where I learned how to fill out a check and balance a checkbook. It’s one of those “life skills” that everyone though was super relevant to teach kids in the early 90s and now is practically useless. I think for the most part school curricula are still good – reading, writing, basic math up to and including algebra, all of those things are useful across a broad range of careers. Some math subjects should probably be optional. Geometry and trig never seemed particularly useful to me. I think people are jumping on the OP for emphasizing coding – as a software developer, I agree that “coding” is a unique skill and shouldn’t be mandatory. But I think OP’s heart is in the right place, in that computer literacy is hugely important. Maybe more precisely, managing _information_ is a skill with broad applications, and we need computers for that. My kids were all issued MacBooks starting in 3rd grade a couple years back, and while I initially thought it was a ridiculous extravagance, I quickly realized how _awesome_ it is for kids to be able to collaborate in Google Docs (spreadsheets, document editing, slideshows) from an early age. My daughters are leaps ahead of where I was at that age in terms of understanding how to manage information. Then the school decided that iPads were good enough and yanked the MacBooks away, and… grr it made me so mad. It’s just not the same. Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with OP that as much, if not more, time should be spent on basic philosophy, logic, and critical thinking as kids spend on writing. The days of someone being a useful employee just because they can read, write, and multiply are long over. People need to know how to process large amounts of information, weed out good information from bad information, understand other points of views, and the impact of their actions. A lot of that is lacking from current curricula. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/22 "2019-11-14T15:49:30Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … > I think people are jumping on the OP for emphasizing coding – as a software developer, I agree that “coding” is a unique skill and shouldn’t be mandatory. But I think OP’s heart is in the right place, in that computer literacy is hugely important. Maybe more precisely, managing _information_ is a skill with broad applications, and we need computers for that. My kids were all issued MacBooks starting in 3rd grade a couple years back, and while I initially thought it was a ridiculous extravagance, I quickly realized how _awesome_ it is for kids to be able to collaborate in Google Docs (spreadsheets, document editing, slideshows) from an early age. My daughters are leaps ahead of where I was at that age in terms of understanding how to manage information. > > Then the school decided that iPads were good enough and yanked the MacBooks away, and… grr it made me so mad. It’s just not the same. > > … Kind of a double-edged sword. Heck, my 4-yr old granddtr impresses me a likely more comfortable w/ a cellphone/tablet than I am. When I’ve asked around here about tech manuals and such, the resounding response was simply get the devices in peoples’ hands, and they would figure it out. I’ve read/heard as much elsewhere. So, yeah - subsidize some tech for the poor, but little need to dedicate significant parts of the finite schoolday. I’m reminded of something else I read recently, critical of simply teaching “reading skills” in the abstract. The article said to have students learn to read ABOUT specific subjects such as history, science, etc. So sure, incorporate the tech into other subject matters. My wife teaches college level business law. 10+ years ago, phones in class were a distraction. Now she has gotten skillful at asking the class to look up certain things to contribute to the material. She doesn’t have to teach them how to use the phones/computers. Of course, I’m thinking of my neighbors’ 2 kids. They were issued chromebooks, and, instead of doing their homework, the kids used them to stay up all hours to surf Youtube… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/23 "2019-11-14T15:58:10Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > We also need to teach children about cognitive biases, fallacies, how to determine the truthfulness of something, how to verify their sources, how to do basic research on the internet, and how to argue or convince people of new ideas. Critical thinking skills are essential, unless we want to keep raising kids prone to being sucked into the same illogical thought patterns and conspiracy theories as their parents. Teaching _how_ to think rationally can begin in grade school and should continue onward into high school and college, even if it has to replace marginal fluff in the curriculum. Or we can manage future generations by ordering social media and other outlets to cleanse themselves of undesirable thought lest it be passed on to vulnerable minds. That’s the ticket. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/24 "2019-11-14T16:15:38Z")
About 1% of Americans are software developers. Why do we need everyone to learn how to do a job that 99% won’t do? For the most it would just frustrate those who are unable to do so. Most people have a tough time adding large number in their head despite math being taught at every grade of school. The problem is not that people are not taught things, people learn research skills and persuasive writing now, but for the most part it doesn’t take. Adding more complex subjects for people to not learn is not a way to fix the system. A better way would be to improve tracking and give people more options. My local school system is trying to do this but progress seems slow. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/25 "2019-11-14T16:21:33Z")
I don’t think teaching coding _per se_ will do a better job of teaching kids to think logically than teaching math would, and math is a more generally applicable set of skills than learning any specific coding language. ISTM that schools would do a comparable job teaching critical thinking as they do teaching reading and writing and math, for better or worse.That is, schools whose students have parents who are actively involved in their childrens’ lives will do well, and schools who don’t, won’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/26 "2019-11-14T16:23:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think teaching coding _per se_ will do a better job of teaching kids to think logically than teaching math would, and math is a more generally applicable set of skills than learning any specific coding language. > > ISTM that schools would do a comparable job teaching critical thinking as they do teaching reading and writing and math, for better or worse.That is, schools whose students have parents who are actively involved in their childrens’ lives will do well, and schools who don’t, won’t. > > Regards, > Shodan Better to have x% of kids coming out of school having learned formal critical thinking skills than not even try, right? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/27 "2019-11-14T17:46:43Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Coding on average pays better than the average in all the things you just listed. It also is a skill expected to continue to grow in value as artificial intelligence becomes ever more capable and productive. But if someone doesn’t want to be a coder they should still be required t learn it as a worker drone in 2040? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/28 "2019-11-14T17:54:42Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Coding should be as basic of a skill as reading and writing should. Even if you don’t use it in your daily life,\*\* it’s still something everyone should know to some capacity\*\* even if they only programmed back in elementary or middle school a few times. We need to set the precedent for the future. Still doesn’t answer why everyone should be _forced_ to learn coding. Are you going to force everyone to learn about first aid and administering medication because nursing is a fast growing field. Why not force people to learn to change oil in their cars and replace brake pads. You are like everyone else that has their vision of the future and requires everyone else to be able to do what YOU think is important in YOUR future. Far more realistic would be to teach students how to use a computer. Most (almost all) adult are illiterate in spreadsheets and have no clue how to make a good Powerpoint. Content creation, SEO and image management seem a lot more practical in today’s world than coding so force the students to learn that. Question: How many of the dopers use coding on a regular basis? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/29 "2019-11-14T18:07:06Z")
Learning how to code in specific language isn’t important. Learning how to compute and how think computationally is. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/30 "2019-11-14T18:24:04Z")
I 100% agree about students needing to be taught to recognize all kinds of fallacies. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/31 "2019-11-14T21:19:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I 100% agree about students needing to be taught to recognize all kinds of fallacies. I agree, My son and daughter (12 and 14) get a lot of their critical thinking skills from their parents, we are both of a scientific background, but they also have religion and ethics lessons in school that does indeed deal with logical fallacies and critical thinking. There’s one thing I’d like to see a little more emphasis on. I’m lucky enough to work with a lot of young people just out of university and I see no shortage of intelligence or work ethic but actual project management skills are often lacking. It is a shame because it is a skillset that is useful in pretty much any business or life situation. Getting people to think “why are we doing this? how will we do this? who will do this? what are the steps along the way? how will I know when I’m finished” can be a revelation. Just being introduced to some of the practical concepts would help. It does get touched upon in scientific disciplines but showing its utility for the workplace in general would be great. You know those people at work who you give stuff to, because they get results and keep everyone honest? yeah, more of those would be great. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/32 "2019-11-14T21:28:42Z")
One thing that occurred to me is that, in our current system, we expect kids to understand algebra when they’re learning arithmetic, before they’ve had an introduction to even a special case of algebra. Then, in middle or high school, they’re taught a very small special case of algebra, and not even the easiest one. The easy algebra, you might encounter in college, but only if you’re a math major or minor. It’d make a lot more sense to teach algebra first, and then arithmetic. All that you gain by teaching arithmetic first is one special case that you can use in algebra. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/33 "2019-11-14T21:30:08Z")
Oh, and as to who _really_ needs to learn programming, lawyers. And anyone who might become a lawmaker. And anyone who wants to live in a society with laws. Because legalese is, effectively, a programming language. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/34 "2019-11-14T21:32:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > My shop teacher in junior high made us buy all of our shop supplies with checks. That’s where I learned how to fill out a check and balance a checkbook. It’s one of those “life skills” that everyone though was super relevant to teach kids in the early 90s and now is practically useless. While writing checks is not something most kids will need to do on a regular basis, the ability to balance your checking account and figure out where your money is/was/went is not exactly a skill I’d call “practically useless.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/35 "2019-11-14T21:57:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, and as to who _really_ needs to learn programming, lawyers. And anyone who might become a lawmaker. And anyone who wants to live in a society with laws. Because legalese is, effectively, a programming language. My son-in-law is a lawyer who knows how to program. When he was in practice for himself it was great since a certain class of business clients got that he understood their issues. But his programming knowledge has never helped him practice. After all, the grammar for a language does not need a judge to figure out how to parse a statement. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/36 "2019-11-14T22:00:52Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with OP that as much, if not more, time should be spent on basic philosophy, logic, and critical thinking as kids spend on writing. The days of someone being a useful employee just because they can read, write, and multiply are long over. People need to know how to process large amounts of information, weed out good information from bad information, understand other points of views, and the impact of their actions. A lot of that is lacking from current curricula. Demonstrating that kids have these skills is best done by having the kids write something. Writing something down in a logical order is much better at concentrating the mind than just speaking it in class, taking a test, or thinking it. Writing checks was a great skill then, today a good one would be for them to have a credit card to buy supplies and a credit limit so they have to budget. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/37 "2019-11-14T22:22:13Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > I was never taught any coding nor were there any coding classes my dad said the same thing when he was in school during the 70s or 80s they were teaching kids programming. That went away for my generation despite computers becoming more people, and low level languages being easier to understand and use (generally). At most we learned how to use a windows computer, and microsoft programs like excel. Really lackluster. Where was that? I recall learning BASIC and LOGO/Turtle Graphics in about 1981-1982 in elementary school. We had to take BASIC a couple of times- middle school IIRC, and definitely high school. Most people just flat out aren’t interested. They may like fooling around with Tik Tok, Snapchat, Instagram, Google, etc… but they have no more interest in how the tablet/phone/PC works than they do how their car works or their refrigerator keeps food cold. Most people have no need to know much science. Gravity is so abstract as to be ridiculous- they don’t know the difference between a graviton and a gravioli, nor do they care about Newton’s gravitational equations. It’s literally a force of nature to them- something that they can’t do anything about, and is just part of the world. Where I do agree with you is that there needs to be some more “life skills” classes that would cover all sorts of stuff like doing laundry, how to tell if something is quackery, fake news, or outright bullshit. Also the basics of financial management- what interest is, how it’s calculated, whether you’re getting ripped off, why long payment plans are to be avoided, etc… All stuff that smart, educated parents tend to impart to their children, but if someone’s parents aren’t smart or educated, then it doesn’t get imparted. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/38 "2019-11-15T04:07:33Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Look, I’m a science enthusiast. I’m all for good science education, and lots of it. But I don’t imagine too many people are hampered in any way by misconceptions of spacetime. > > I used to be a teacher and I found a lot of people are appalled at what others don’t know about their area of expertise\*. Chemistry professors can’t believe other people don’t understand chemistry, math experts are incredulous that others don’t get math, PE teachers hate that some people aren’t athletic. But education teaches everyone a little about everything. If some of us are uncertain of why gravity pulls or pushes we’ll still get along. > > - I had an artist girlfriend once who was horrified that I didn’t know what colors mix into other colors. That was her bread and butter, but was outside my needs and experience. Here’s a better example. Theres a people who don’t realize grease / oil doesn’t mix with water, so they throw a bucket of water onto a grease fire expecting it to go out then they catch their house on fire. That’s something, that could be avoided with basic reinforcement of science. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/39 "2019-11-15T05:44:55Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Critical thinking skills are essential, unless we want to keep raising kids prone to being sucked into the same illogical thought patterns and conspiracy theories as their parents. > > Teaching _how_ to think rationally can begin in grade school and should continue onward into high school and college, even if it has to replace marginal fluff in the curriculum. > > Or we can manage future generations by ordering social media and other outlets to cleanse themselves of undesirable thought lest it be passed on to vulnerable minds. That’s the ticket. :dubious: That and teaching how to learn, if you churn out people that are capable of self education you don’t have to worry whether whatever you are filling their heads with at the present is either what they want to learn now or what they’ll need to learn in the future. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392/40 "2019-11-15T10:02:58Z")
Focus on a basic liberal arts education, which includes the humanities and the sciences. Skills like coding will come easily if the foundation is solid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improve-school-curriculum-introduce-programming-at-early-age-cognitive-biases-philosophy-etc/843392.md?page=3)