# Improving your English is both easy and fun! (mild rant at native English speakers)

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [August 19, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161 "2003-08-19T07:21:45Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/41 "2003-08-19T18:42:38Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by **DesertGeezer** \*  
> After all, when **your** right, **your** right.

Can I also be in the shooting squad?

😃

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**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/42 "2003-08-19T18:48:55Z")

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I can understand getting all worked up over the examples in the OP, but I think it’s stupid when some of the language Nazis around here keep getting upset over your/you’re, to/two/too, it’s/its, should of/should’ve, etc.

It’s not like people that use the wrong word don’t KNOW that it’s wrong. I’d bet that 99% of the time the wrong word is used simply because someone was “dictating to themselves” in their head, so they spelled it out phonetically and typed it.

Sure people should check their work before posting, but it’s nothing to scream about.

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**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/43 "2003-08-19T18:58:01Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lisa-go-Blind \*  
> **2)“for all intensive purposes”. What is this even supposed to mean? “Intensive purposes”? Perhaps if one paid attention to the actual words coming out of one’s mouth/pen/fingers, then one would realize how nonsensical it is. By the way, it’s “for all intents and purposes”.**

You must not have read the entire thread from which you got this particular “boo boo”. FTR, this mistake was pointed out in the thread in which it was posted.

The poster who made this mistake is a doper who is normally articulate and writes well, it was a momentary lapse on his(her?) part, and those in the thread, INLCUDING the author of this “phrase faux pas” had a good laugh over it.

Especially since the author DID know what would have been the correct phrase, his fingers were just flying faster than he was thinking, or some such.

I’m all for grammar/spelling nazism, but before using something as an example of someone who is posting errors foolishly, you might want to check that the error wasn’t already acknowledged as such by its author.

Just a thought 🙂

The “pre-madonna” thing cracked me up though, I’ve never seen anyone use that before.

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**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/44 "2003-08-19T18:58:24Z")

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The one that just makes me shake my head is Break and Brake. I post at an automotive forum and _there are people who don’t know the difference!_.

Makes baby jesus cry I tells ya.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/45 "2003-08-19T18:58:30Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lisa-go-Blind \*  
> 2)“for all intensive purposes”. What is this even supposed to mean? “Intensive purposes”? Perhaps if one paid attention to the actual words coming out of one’s mouth/pen/fingers, then one would realize how nonsensical it is. By the way, it’s **“for all intents and purposes”**.

I don’t know where you saw this… but if you saw it in my “Bricker Challenge” thread, then you should take another look at the context in which it was offered, for which use I would aver it was absolutely appropriate.

- Rick

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**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/46 "2003-08-19T19:05:50Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Dogface \*  
> \*\*It’s “its” not “it’s” if one writes of something belonging to “it”. Only an utter MORON could fail to know this. Likewise, plurals in English are usually formed WITHOUT using an apostrophe. Egregious apostrophism ought to be grounds for mandatory sterilization with a rusty spoon. \*\*

I do it, but I’m not an utter moron, I KNOW the correct use, I am just a lousy typist, and one or two of the little suckers occasionally slip through.

Generally (or so it seems) I use “it’s” (it is) in typing more than “its” (belongs to it), if I’ve got several “it’ses” in a post (or report), I’ll get so used to typing it’s that the ones that are SUPPOSD to be its’es just automatically fly off my fingers (especially if I’m “in the zone” for once, which doesn’t happen often since I’m a TERRIBLE typist), as it’s instead (don’t worry, on my technical reports I carefully double check ALL it’ses AND itses!! 😃

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**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/47 "2003-08-19T19:09:16Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \*  
> \*\*Signed: a fellow language Nazi. (That _is_ what some people here will call you…that or “grammar Nazi”). … \*\*

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by mhendo \*  
> \*\*… maybe “denegrate” is derived from the Latin, and means “to remove a black mark or stain.” 🙂 \*\*

Ah, such memories… I once wrote a paper in grad school that got my ass canned. Yes, I was actually formally expelled (and later reinstated, though I quit shortly after reinstatement). In this paper I argued that certain… ah, critical theorists use a deliberately obscurantist writing style. I quoted George Orwell on the subject of “plain style”. My professor called _him_ a grammar nazi, informed me that I had to “break my thrall to the dead white male cabal” (never MIND that the two sources I quoted most often in that paper were Patricia Nelson Limerick and Edward Said!), proceeded to redefine me as a potential black stain on the lily-white reputation of the department, and had me officially denegrated.

Heavens, no; I’m not bitter. Why do you ask?

I wear my grammar nazi badge with pride.

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**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/48 "2003-08-19T19:14:16Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CanvasShoes \*  
> \*\*… I carefully double check ALL it’ses AND itses!! 😃 \*\*

poke poke

I do believe that should be “it’s’es” and “its’es”. Or at least “_it’s_es” and “_its_es”. Better yet, “\*it’s’\*es” and “\*its’\*es”…

hee hee!

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**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/49 "2003-08-19T19:18:40Z")

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It’s a doggy-dog world out there.

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**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/50 "2003-08-19T19:40:48Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by emilyforce \*  
> \*\*poke poke
> 
> I do believe that should be “it’s’es” and “its’es”. Or at least “_it’s_es” and “_its_es”. Better yet, “\*it’s’\*es” and “\*its’\*es”…
> 
> hee hee! \*\*

How about _"it’s"s_ and _"its"s_?

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**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/51 "2003-08-19T19:57:21Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Shade \*  
> \*\*How about _"it’s"s_ and _"its"s_? \*\*

Sorry, no; the information that this is a word-referred-to-as-a-word (or “word-as-word”) is conveyed by the italics, and double quotation marks would be redundant if used in that particular instance. But you get to keep the double quotes around the whole parcel as they are being quoted from the original.

Hey, buddy, I’m a perfessinal copiediter. I perfessinaly copiediate _grammar textbooks_. You mess with me on this stuff, I call you OUT.

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**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/52 "2003-08-19T20:07:39Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mighty\_Girl \*  
> \*\*Can I also be in the shooting squad?
> 
> 😃 \*\*

You can hurt me if you want to, **Mighty\_Girl** , but you did know that was intentional…didn’t you?

Using “your” for “you’re” is second only to using “their” for “they’re” in my list of boob-headed boo-boos. It bugs me when people write “to” when they mean “too,” too, also, as well, besides. 😉

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**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/53 "2003-08-19T20:12:59Z")

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Ah! But you MUST cut me some slack for I am not a native speaker.

Heh!

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**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/54 "2003-08-19T20:17:47Z")

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**emily** : Uh, I didn’t mean to imply you were wrong, I was following on in the light hearted theme of making more suggestions…

My logic was that CanvasShoes was referring to many instances of the contraction of “it is”, so should enclose that word in quotes, and then put an ‘s’ on the end. I italicised what I suggested to indicate that it was a quotation-type-thing, not part of my sentance structure.

I thought it wa the same as your second example, but with italics as outer quotes and double quotes as inner quotes, rather than vice-verca.

But I’m not the copyeditor, a profession I feel is very unappreciated :), so could you explain that again?

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**Author:** ![Lisa-go-Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Lisa-go-Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lisa-go-Blind)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/55 "2003-08-19T20:33:58Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Bricker \*  
> \*\*I don’t know where you saw this… but if you saw it in my “Bricker Challenge” thread, then you should take another look at the context in which it was offered, for which use I would aver it was absolutely appropriate.
> 
> - Rick \*\*

I don’t think I’ve ever read your “Bricker Challenge” thread (sorry), but this is one that I’ve actually seen multiple times on this message board. **CanvasShoes** , sometimes the mistake will be pointed out, sometimes not. Can I have a link to the thread you’re referring to?

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**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/56 "2003-08-19T21:47:42Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Shade \*  
> \*\ ***emily** : Uh, I didn’t mean to imply you were wrong, I was following on in the light hearted theme of making more suggestions…
> 
> My logic was that CanvasShoes was referring to many instances of the contraction of “it is”, so should enclose that word in quotes, and then put an ‘s’ on the end. I italicised what I suggested to indicate that it was a quotation-type-thing, not part of my sentance structure.
> 
> I thought it wa the same as your second example, but with italics as outer quotes and double quotes as inner quotes, rather than vice-verca.
> 
> But I’m not the copyeditor, a profession I feel is very unappreciated :), so could you explain that again? \*\*

Hey, flattery and appreciation will get you everywhere. All righty. I will not whup your italics-impaired ass. 😉  
(See, I left out the 😉 on my last post. Sorry 'bout that.)

Now down to business.

_Chicago Manual of Style_ (14th ed.), pp. 213-14:[ul][li]6.75: Phrases quoted from another context are usually enclosed in quotation marks.[/li]  
[li]6.76: When… a word or term is referred to as the word or term itself and is not being used functionally to convey its meaning, it is commonly set in italics… Quotation marks are also often used for this purpose [but using both italics _and_ quotation marks would be redundant].[/li]  
[li]6.77 The plurals of italicized words and terms are formed by the addition of _s_ or _es_ (see 6.14-15). It is simpler to form the plural of an italicized word than of a word enclosed in quotation marks, but if the latter seems required or preferable, the tidiest way to show the plural is to add an apostrophe and an _s_ inside the closing quotation mark [but, again, it would be redundant to use both italics _and_ apostrophes].[/ul] So, technically, **“it’s’es” and “its’es”** or **“_it’s_es” and “_its_es”** are correct, [/li]but my suggestion of \*\*"\*it’s’\*es" and "_its’es"_ and your suggestion of **_"it’s"s_ and _"its"s_** are both wrong.

But hon, we gotta talk: please, oh please tell me “vice-ver **c** a” is a typo. Or your ass WILL be perfessinaly copieditated.

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**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/57 "2003-08-19T22:05:27Z")

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Pfft. **emilyforce,** ain’t yew gotcher CMS 15 yet? The 14th edition is _sooo_ passé. 😉

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**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/58 "2003-08-19T22:17:21Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Scarlett67 \*  
> \*\*Pfft. **emilyforce,** ain’t yew gotcher CMS 15 yet? The 14th edition is _sooo_ passé. 😉 \*\*

{sob} No, we can’t get them or even use them in my office until my boss has a chance to go over all the changes and determine whether they align with our house style or not. This will probably require several high-level meetings with several executive senior übereditors since we don’t have a department VP at the moment.

[snif] Don’t have to rub it in, missy!

I also want the new Merriam Webster’s Collegiate and the new MLA Handbook, but don’t hold your breath for me.

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**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/59 "2003-08-19T22:25:08Z")

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Bureaucracy’s a bitch, innit? I have to admit that I haven’t started (or ever offered) to implement it on new projects, either. I’ve had a quick flip through, but I want to take some serious time and really go over it before I start claiming to be comfy with it.

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**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/improving-your-english-is-both-easy-and-fun-mild-rant-at-native-english-speakers/196161/60 "2003-08-19T22:38:19Z")

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Crud. Yes, it’s a typo. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

> [@](#):
>
> I do believe that should be “it’s’es” and “its’es”. Or at least “it’ses” and “itses”. Better yet, “it’s’es” and “its’es”…

> [@](#):
>
> So, technically, **“it’s’es” and “its’es”** or **“_it’s_es” and “_its_es”** are correct,  
> but my suggestion of \*\*"\*it’s’\*es" and "_its’es"_ and your suggestion of **_"it’s"s_ and _"its"s_** are both wrong.

Now I’m confused…

In your original post, were the double quotes your quotes, or what you were suggesting CanvasShoes use?

In your second example, there’s bold, double quotes and single quotes - isn’t that too many? Or are you quoting yourself earlier quoting CanvasShoes quoting himself?

Let me see if I can follow the guide… (phrase suggested in bold)

**I should use it’s and its** - wrong, should be in quotes  
**I should use _it’s_ and _its_** - yes, italics used as quotes  
**I should use “it’s” and “its”** - yes, double quotes used as quotes  
**I should more _it’ses_ and _itses_** - yes, italics used as quotes, with italic ‘es’ appended to indicate plural. Confusing imho as the if ‘es’ formed a standard plural it could appear to be the quote of a plural not the plural of a quote.  
**I should more “it’s’s” and “its’s”** - yes, double quotes used as quotes, and apostrophe and ‘s’ inside for plural - confusing as before.

I can’t face the examples where someone is quoting someone else quoting…

> [@](#):
>
> The plurals of italicized words and terms are formed by the addition of s or es

Or am I reading this wrong? Does it mean a quoted plural, not the plural of a quote?

> [@](#):
>
> the tidiest way to show the plural is to add an apostrophe and an s inside the closing quotation mark

Does that mean there’s another way?

Am I taking this too seriously? ☹ I’d flatter you some more, but then it might turn into a flirt thread and I’d never find out about quotes 🙂

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