# In 2015, LAPD only used force in 2,000 of 1.5 million police contacts. How is that possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 22, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093 "2016-06-22T22:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/1 "2016-06-22T22:40:29Z")
I’m not a cop so I have no idea how that works. > **[More than a third of people shot by L.A. police last year were mentally ill,...](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lapd-use-of-force-report-20160301-story.html)** > > More than a third of the people shot by Los Angeles police last year had documented signs of mental illness, nearly triple the number from the year before, according to a lengthy review by LAPD officials made public Tuesday. > [@](#): > > He and other top brass stressed that although encounters in which officers use force were relatively rare — accounting for fewer than 2,000 of the 1.5 million contacts officers made last year — the department was eager to drive the number down…Fourteen of the 38 people shot by LAPD officers in 2015 had documented signs of mental illness, the LAPD’s report said. And about a quarter of the nearly 1,900 less-serious uses of force — which range from an officer using a Taser or firing a bean-bag shotgun to grabbing someone — involved someone the officer believed was mentally ill. When you consider how many people are going to resist arrest, the number of mentally ill people, etc. how can the use of force interactions be about 0.1%? Is only 1/1000 police interactions involving physical overpowering actually accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/2 "2016-06-22T22:54:53Z")
They’ve got to be padding like hell to get up to 1.5 million “contacts.” They could be counting phone calls in the total. The city’s only got a population of about four million; they’re saying one person in three has contact with police every year? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/3 "2016-06-22T23:00:40Z")
They had multiple contacts with some of these people. Street criminals are often in and out of jail. Homeless people get stopped and questioned. Violent crimes. The number of contacts adds up. quickly I think most people cooperate. I’ve had a couple minor contacts with police and it never occurred to me to flee or resist. ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/4 "2016-06-22T23:03:55Z")
Because in REAL LIFE (which is not TV), most people have respect for the police and do as they are told. Many police departments allow the public to ride around with an officer for an afternoon. Might try that, very eye opening! ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/5 "2016-06-22T23:16:10Z")
There could well be very substantial under-reporting: probably a great deal of additional paperwork involved and the possibility of reprimands. The individuals at the receiving end usually don’t have a strong incentive to make sure it is reported: who wants to be arrested for resisting arrest–a possible consequence? But just barroom brawls and domestic violence should generate substantially more instances of force than 2,000/year. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/6 "2016-06-23T00:36:53Z")
> [@Me\_Billy](#): > > Because in REAL LIFE (which is not TV), most people have respect for the police and do as they are told. > > Many police departments allow the public to ride around with an officer for an afternoon. Might try that, very eye opening! Yes, many people do. But many people are also serious criminals (a small % of serious criminals commit a large % of crimes). Many people will fight or run from the cops. Many people are mentally ill and do not mean harm to the cops, but they may not be able to cooperate. So in between groups like this, how can only 1 in 1000 interactions involve force? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/7 "2016-06-23T12:12:41Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So in between groups like this, how can only 1 in 1000 interactions involve force? Because there are a gazillion contacts that don’t involve force. Every traffic stop, every time they stop to ask a homeless guy if he’s OK, every jaywalker who quietly takes his lumps, every car accident where there’s no hostility involved. Even in cases of domestic violence and barroom brawls, the violence between participants is often ended, and the participants have settled down, by the time the cops arrive to sort it out. Traffic stops account for a huge proportion of “contacts.” [Old data here,](http://www.lapdonline.org/may_1999/news_view/28180) but it says that in 1999 they made 500,000 traffic stops; I can only assume that number has gone way up since then. I have no doubt that the vast majority of these did not involve any physical force at all, even in cases where the driver was grumpy about being cited. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/8 "2016-06-23T12:32:34Z")
> [@Me\_Billy](#): > > Because in REAL LIFE (which is not TV), most people have respect for the police and do as they are told. > > Many police departments allow the public to ride around with an officer for an afternoon. Might try that, very eye opening! This, on both counts. Actual police work is less “getting into prolonged shoot outs and wrestling with crazy homeless people” like on TV, and more “being a part of the community and talking to people who need your help.” I did a ride along as a teen in a city of about 750,000 people. There was one moment of excitement when a serial bank robber was caught (not by my officer), otherwise it was generally a day of him making his rounds, visiting vulnerable people, meeting with superiors, and making a presence at known trouble spots. Even the incident with the capture of the bank robber was done without force. TV isn’t a great portrayal of a normal day of policing (for obvious reasons). Using it to form your worldview is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/9 "2016-06-23T12:54:36Z")
For any given crime, the police may have “contacts” with dozens of people. People call in to report it, witnesses on the scene get interviewed, or are contacted later for interviews. Police talk to people at banks, phone companies, employer, etc. to get access to relevant records. All these interactions are contacts. ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/10 "2016-06-23T14:47:42Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Yes, many people do. But many people are also serious criminals… ACTUALLY “serious criminals” are more likely to say “Yes Sir!”, etc. when stopped by an officer. It is blonde housewives and 20 year old punks who typically give them trouble. ‘I Can’t Believe It,’ She Says : Zsa Zsa Gabor Convicted of Slapping Police Officer… > **['I Can't Believe It,' She Says : Zsa Zsa Gabor Convicted of Slapping Police...](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-09-30-mn-168-story.html)** > > The strange, oftentimes uproarious Zsa Zsa Gabor trial was handed over to posterity on Friday, with a jury convicting the actress of slapping a police officer, driving without a license and possessing an open container of alcohol--a flask of Jack... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/11 "2016-06-23T14:58:31Z")
You have to remember most routine police work is unremarkable (just like most other jobs). A typical police interaction with the public is somebody asking for directions. Even if the interaction involves a crime, it’s far more likely to be issuing a speeding ticket than arresting somebody for a serious felony. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/12 "2016-06-23T15:10:12Z")
OP has yet to offer any evidence that the cited number is unusually high or unusually low. This entire thread is just based on assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/13 "2016-06-23T15:25:23Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > OP has yet to offer any evidence that the cited number is unusually high or unusually low. This entire thread is just based on assumptions. Just on personal experience it seems to be pretty reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/14 "2016-06-23T18:24:44Z")
This weekend I was talking to a member of the Cincinnati Police Special Response Team (used to be called SWAT). I asked him how often he gets called out. About once a month was his reply. Just points out how rare major issues come up. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/15 "2016-06-23T18:38:56Z")
Right, how are “contacts” defined for the purposes of the OP’s statistic? > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > For any given crime, the police may have “contacts” with dozens of people. People call in to report it, witnesses on the scene get interviewed, or are contacted later for interviews. Police talk to people at banks, phone companies, employer, etc. to get access to relevant records. All these interactions are contacts. Does every one of those count, for the purpose of OP’s statistic? (That must mean I have a police record now. I witnessed a guy beat the living crap out of another guy in the street, just last night, in my quiet little town. Yeah, the cops asked me questions. I was also one of the 911 callers, twice in fact. Do I count as a “contact” now? Multiple times even?) > [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > TV isn’t a great portrayal of a normal day of policing (for obvious reasons). Using it to form your worldview is a bad idea. WTF? You mean it isn’t all like _Hill Street Blues_ all day every day? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/16 "2016-06-23T18:55:18Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Right, how are “contacts” defined for the purposes of the OP’s statistic? > > Does every one of those count, for the purpose of OP’s statistic? > > (That must mean I have a police record now. I witnessed a guy beat the living crap out of another guy in the street, just last night, in my quiet little town. Yeah, the cops asked me questions. I was also one of the 911 callers, twice in fact. Do I count as a “contact” now? Multiple times even?) > > WTF? You mean it isn’t all like _Hill Street Blues_ all day every day? There’s no way of knowing, as the linked article doesn’t include the detail of how a “contact” is defined. But I would say yes, every time you communicate with a police officer or a dispatcher, it’s a contact. Or perhaps, every time one of them writes down your name in a report. Presumably, since there is a record of “contacts” then there is something in writing to refer back to it. I dunno, maybe it might be even more tenuous. Let’s say a cop visits a grade school and give that old “Stranger Danger” lecture to an auditorium full of kids. Maybe someone has an attendance count, and if there are 200 kids that’s 200 contacts. OTOH, if you pass a cop on the street and you say “Good morning” to each other, I would think that’s not a contact. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/17 "2016-06-23T19:14:36Z")
The report has changed format so direct year vs year comparisons is tough. It seems like the number of use of force (UOF) events has been somewhat consistent, but the number of contacts has risen significantly. I can’t find a definition for a contact. In [2012 the number of UOF events was 1,854](http://assets.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/2012_UOF_Annual_Report.pdf) with 929K contacts (Page 8). In [2009 the number of UOF was 1,762](http://assets.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/2009YearEndReportFinal.pdf) but the number of contacts isn’t displayed in gross figures, only percentages (page 15). Here is the [executive summary of the 2015 report](http://assets.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/UOF%20Executive%20Summary.pdf)in question. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/18 "2016-06-23T19:35:46Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > But just barroom brawls and domestic violence should generate substantially more instances of force than 2,000/year. While there would be use of force while committing the crime, how many of those people are still actively fighting when the police show up? My guess is that the fight is usually over and a dozen drunken bikers are all looking a little sheepish and on their best behavior in the hopes that they’ll get a warning and not an arrest. As for number of contacts, barroom brawls should be a perfect example. A single brawl is going to involve a few dozen contacts because the police will get multiple witnesses to tell the story and they might leave the scene without arresting anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/19 "2016-06-23T21:54:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You have to remember most routine police work is unremarkable (just like most other jobs). A typical police interaction with the public is somebody asking for directions. Even if the interaction involves a crime, it’s far more likely to be issuing a speeding ticket than arresting somebody for a serious felony. Los Angeles has 100,000+ gang members. And a sizeable chunk of police interactions with the public are with mentally ill people. These figures mean that there is less than 1 UOF per officer per year. Is that what cops in the field tend to notice? Keep in mind I’m under the impression UOF can mean shoving, takedowns, tasers, mace, tackling a running suspect, etc. I personally just find it hard to believe that a cop will have less than 1 fleeing or resisting suspect per year. How can those events end in anything other than UOF? ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093/20 "2016-06-24T01:03:56Z")
It would be more useful to state use of force incidents per number of arrests. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-2015-lapd-only-used-force-in-2-000-of-1-5-million-police-contacts-how-is-that-possible/758093.md?page=2)